For all you D Hall lovers

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Hall of course, is only 25, so you could throw out the term "upside" with him, as he has plenty of time to grow.

But I would caution the organization that buys talent for it's future value, as you have quite the history on the guy which suggests that he's a questionable investment. Everyone has a price, but Snyder's been dealing closer to the merchandise revenue (MRP) expectation than how good Hall actually is on the field.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Any agent worth his salt will float his client's star potential in order to get him paid. But very often, you overpay the talent on the field because you can make a profit off the field, and then your coaches play players not because they are more deserving, but because they feel like they have to let them justify their contract.

And we absolutely have no chance to handle this properly on the coaching end. So Hall is a huge gamble for us because if he doesn't pan out, he's just going to cost us wins for many, many years into the future.

What do you define as not panning out? How will hall singlehandedly cost us wins for many years in the future? you use the term win and year in the plural sense, which seems to imply Hall somehow has the ability to singlehandely lose more than one game per year for us, for atleast 3 years. Please spell this out for me because i dont see how Hall, even if he ends up playing at a lowly fred smoot level (which is HIGHLY unlikely), would singlehandedly result in us losing multiple games over a course of several years? it seems to be a ridiculous, outlandish statement, and i would really like to know what youre basing it on.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

What do you define as not panning out? How will hall singlehandedly cost us wins for many years in the future? you use the term win and year in the plural sense, which seems to imply Hall somehow has the ability to singlehandely lose more than one game per year for us, for atleast 3 years. Please spell this out for me because i dont see how Hall, even if he ends up playing at a lowly fred smoot level (which is HIGHLY unlikely), would singlehandedly result in us losing multiple games over a course of several years? it seems to be a ridiculous, outlandish statement, and i would really like to know what youre basing it on.

Why is him playing at Smoot's level highly unlikely? For his entire Atlanta career, he played at about the same level Smoot did.

Stats I have go back to 2005:

2005 Smoot 7.2 YPA, SR 52%
2005 Hall 7.4 YPA, SR 52%

2006 Smoot 6.7 YPA, SR 58%
2006 Hall 8.5 YPA, SR 46%

2007 Smoot 5.3 YPA, SR 43%
2007 Hall 7.2 YPA, SR 48%

All courtesy Pro Football Prospectus 2006, 2007, and 2008 respectively.

Hall was like 11 YPA in Oakland this year and like 5ish in Washington. Unquestionably, this was the famed "career (half) year". His early production doesn't suggest we would be wrong to average the results. It suggests that any advantage a young DeAngelo Hall had over a in-his-prime Fred Smoot is based on something besides his ability to cover.

Notice the bold type: I pointed out last year that Smoot's production was totally out of line with that of the rest of his career, and told everyone here that I thought he was a real candidate to decline. I had no idea that Smoot would be as bad as he was. No idea. I did know that he's probably not a starting caliber corner in most years.

Based on Hall's first five years, we'd have to say the same thing. Except that he's only 25, so he's got plenty of time left to improve. If he did improve though, we'd be more likely to see it in slow small incriments (at least statistically), than in one big jump, especially over only seven games.

The seven games here for Hall represent a statistical fluke. If DeSean Jackson catches both deep balls over his shoulder, the Redskins win only one game in Hall's tenure here, people see our defense as some crappy, declining unit, and Hall's numbers here are right in line with his career averages. That's obviously why I don't trust his small sample success.

I think that if you pair Rogers with Hall and treat Hall like a second CB, he'll do some developing here and he'll be able to play our Springs role. Rogers, in my opinion, is key to Hall's development. Hall, in pretty much everyone's opinion, has a very long road to NFL success ahead.

Why should we pay the best case scenario potential?

[MTK]

We didn't overpay for London Fletcher, and I don't think you can discount passing over guys like Hackett. We wanted him, but only for a certain price.

[MTK]

The thing that concerns me about Hall is when he has a meltdown on the field and starts getting flagged for stupid penalties. Last year we didn't see any of that, hopefully he is past those days.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

The thing that concerns me about Hall is when he has a meltdown on the field and starts getting flagged for stupid penalties. Last year we didn't see any of that, hopefully he is past those days.

I recall 2 personal fouls without meltdowns.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

The thing that concerns me about Hall is when he has a meltdown on the field and starts getting flagged for stupid penalties. Last year we didn't see any of that, hopefully he is past those days.

when he got burnt for a catch then had his tackle brushed off he lost his cool and came down the field and hit the receiver when he was on the ground after the play. got his 15 yarder. yeah, i hope he doesnt do more of that. def doesnt fit in with how we like to play the game. (this is where you say what is skins football? b/c hall doesnt like losing he doesnt play skins football? yada yada yada)

the thing i worry about hall with is if this team isnt winning i can see him becoming a malcontent on the field and in the locker room. if we're winning and hes making plays all will be good. if we arent winning and players start publicly questioning the coaches i think he could turn into the old hall quite quickly.

either way, i get the feeling we need him and ill be rooting for him while he is in the B&G.

go skins!!

[44ever]

We are making way too much of an issue of Halls on field behavior IMO. The guy has been very professional on and off the field since signing with the Skins. I don't see the need for concern here. We would be fools not to sign him IMO. Or we can continue to talk smack about how our FO "doesnt recongnize talent" or "let that one get away" ect... The Redskins need Hall, not the other way around.

Most INTs, since 2005
Champ Bailey 22
Asante Samuel 22
DeAngelo Hall 18
Darren Sharper 17
Charles Woodson 17

[vallin21]

Originally Posted by 44ever

We are making way too much of an issue of Halls on field behavior IMO. The guy has been very professional on and off the field since signing with the Skins. I don't see the need for concern here. We would be fools not to sign him IMO. Or we can continue to talk smack about how our FO "doesnt recongnize talent" or "let that one get away" ect... The Redskins need Hall, not the other way around.

Exactly

[53Fan]

Hall has been immature most of his career and just like a spoiled child he has gotten away with a lot of bad behavior in the past because he was allowed to. Oakland sent him packing, and to be benched or let go by the Redskins should he sign with us, would pretty much stain the rest of his career. It seems to me that Los lost his starting job after complaining that the players were not put in position to make plays in a game late in the year. I can't imagine Blache putting up with too much crap from Hall, or the other players putting up with stupid penalties either. I know Fletch wouldn't. He did get a couple of personal fouls out of frustration last year but I was surprised there wasn't more of a reaction from him about Springs stepping in front of him and screwing up an easy interception. He has talent. What he has lacked is discipline. I would hope that Jerry Gray is being asked for his imput on this and I would have to respect whatever he feels about Hall. If Los could hold on to the damn ball, Hall might not be as attractive to us but this is where we are. I would offer him a good contract but not break the bank on him. If he really wants to play for us and is not just after the money, we shouldn't have to.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by 53Fan

Hall has been immature most of his career and just like a spoiled child he has gotten away with a lot of bad behavior in the past because he was allowed to. Oakland sent him packing, and to be benched or let go by the Redskins should he sign with us, would pretty much stain the rest of his career. It seems to me that Los lost his starting job after complaining that the players were not put in position to make plays in a game late in the year. I can't imagine Blache putting up with too much crap from Hall, or the other players putting up with stupid penalties either. I know Fletch wouldn't. He did get a couple of personal fouls out of frustration last year but I was surprised there wasn't more of a reaction from him about Springs stepping in front of him and screwing up an easy interception. He has talent. What he has lacked is discipline. I would hope that Jerry Gray is being asked for his imput on this and I would have to respect whatever he feels about Hall. If Los could hold on to the damn ball, Hall might not be as attractive to us but this is where we are. I would offer him a good contract but not break the bank on him. If he really wants to play for us and is not just after the money, we shouldn't have to.

Hall was only 19 when he came into the league, so it shouldnt come as a surprise that he had some maturity issues early on in his career. but for goodness sakes, hes 25 now. most guys do ALOT of maturing in that time period. He's gone on the record saying he was miserable in Oakland and the experience showed him money isnt everything. He was as close to a model citizen as you want your starting corner to be. every corner gets a personal foul now and then - i seem to remember the "beloved" carlos rogers getting a couple this year - yet why is no one talking about his character and maturity? Hall has also gone on record saying how much he looks up to Fletcher and asks him for advice. Hall is saying and DOING all the right things. He has done enough to show most - if not all - of his maturity problems are a thing of the past. He's certainly done enough to show he's more mature than Carlos Rogers is at this point, with all his complaining about his contract, playing time, and even demanding a trade.

And what about our other corner, Springs? He's as selfish and greedy as they come - yet no one criticizes his character. Looking at our corner situation, we have two young, talented guys in Hall and Rogers. Some people say its an either/or situation - but i dont think we should have to chose between them. I think we should extend Hall and keep Rogers, atleast one more year... but if given a choice, i'd pick Hall in a heartbeat and not look back. He is - by far - the better (and more mature) corner.

[44ever]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Hall was only 19 when he came into the league, so it shouldnt come as a surprise that he had some maturity issues early on in his career. but for goodness sakes, hes 25 now. most guys do ALOT of maturing in that time period. He's gone on the record saying he was miserable in Oakland and the experience showed him money isnt everything. He was as close to a model citizen as you want your starting corner to be. every corner gets a personal foul now and then - i seem to remember the "beloved" carlos rogers getting a couple this year - yet why is no one talking about his character and maturity? Hall has also gone on record saying how much he looks up to Fletcher and asks him for advice. Hall is saying and DOING all the right things. He has done enough to show most - if not all - of his maturity problems are a thing of the past. He's certainly done enough to show he's more mature than Carlos Rogers is at this point, with all his complaining about his contract, playing time, and even demanding a trade.

And what about our other corner, Springs? He's as selfish and greedy as they come - yet no one criticizes his character. Looking at our corner situation, we have two young, talented guys in Hall and Rogers. Some people say its an either/or situation - but i dont think we should have to chose between them. I think we should extend Hall and keep Rogers, atleast one more year... but if given a choice, i'd pick Hall in a heartbeat and not look back. He is - by far - the better (and more mature) corner.

Agree 100% with you on this one BHA

Most INTs, since 2005
Champ Bailey 22
Asante Samuel 22
DeAngelo Hall 18
Darren Sharper 17
Charles Woodson 17

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by 44ever

Agree 100% with you on this one BHA

Most INTs, since 2005
Champ Bailey 22
Asante Samuel 22
DeAngelo Hall 18
Darren Sharper 17
Charles Woodson 17

Hall is in some very good company there. Why anyone wouldnt want him is beyond me.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Hall is in some very good company there. Why anyone wouldnt want him is beyond me.

The same reason no one wanted TO when he was cut by the iggles a couple years back, yet you could hold his stats up w/the best in the biz too. The cowpokes were the only team that would pay him. Likewise, Hall wasn't claimed off waivers by anyone when the raiders cut him, so NO nfl team thought he was worth the deal he signed w/oakland.

Hall is the TO of db's. I hope the dude has matured & isn't such a self absorbed prick, but I think he played well this year for one reason - he wants a big contract. He could be the best in the biz but he doesn't want to be coached & he alienates his teamates.

C. Mortensen reported that the week before he got cut the raiders were hosting atlanta. He had a cookout for some of his old teamates, but "had a lot of food left over." This guy seems to be almost universally hated everywhere he goes, and its a shame cause he has the physical ability to be great. I would hate to see us sign him & trade Rogers, it could impact chemistry in a very bad way.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

And what about our other corner, Springs? He's as selfish and greedy as they come - yet no one criticizes his character. Looking at our corner situation, we have two young, talented guys in Hall and Rogers. Some people say its an either/or situation - but i dont think we should have to chose between them. I think we should extend Hall and keep Rogers, atleast one more year... but if given a choice, i'd pick Hall in a heartbeat and not look back. He is - by far - the better (and more mature) corner.

I would give Springs a break. His father has been in a coma for over a year and I'm sure those hospital bills are pretty hefty and I can pretty much say that he's helping his mom in paying for those bills that keep rolling in and probably has no help from the players union. Maybe that's why he's greedy and doesn't want pitty from anyone so he acts this way?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

I would give Springs a break. His father has been in a coma for over a year and I'm sure those hospital bills are pretty hefty and I can pretty much say that he's helping his mom in paying for those bills that keep rolling in and probably has no help from the players union. Maybe that's why he's greedy and doesn't want pitty from anyone so he acts this way?

are you serious? his father played in the NFL. The springs family is loaded, with or without Shawns help. And shawns father has nothing to do with the fact that he'll miss a game if there's a stiff breeze - they guys #1 priority is money and he's not going to play (to earn his money) if he doesnt want to. he has no "heart" and he sets a bad example for the other players. Im sure Carlos has learned alot from him the past 4 years and observing his attitude could very well have contributed to Carlos attitude now in demanding a trade.