Seems like Cutler might be available.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by That Guy

I don't think campbell is ever going to be one of the greats, but he's good and young and cutler isn't a big enough improvement to shower him/the broncos with crazy picks and money.

I agree that he won't be one of the top 3 or 4 in the league ever, but he can be everything that Cutler is and will be if we put the right team around him.

[Redskin Jim]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I agree that he won't be one of the top 3 or 4 in the league ever, but he can be everything that Cutler is and will be if we put the right team around him.

G stop trippin!! No way can JC have a career even close to Cutler's unless a flip/flop of offenses- I mean lines and wide out talent was to happen... JC= career journeyman, Cutler= career probowler.. Don't be too blinded as a homer..

[SkinzzFan]

Originally Posted by Redskin Jim

G stop trippin!! No way can JC have a career even close to Cutler's unless a flip/flop of offenses- I mean lines and wide out talent was to happen... JC= career journeyman, Cutler= career probowler.. Don't be too blinded as a homer..

Cutler may have better numbers than Campbell, but their career records are virtually identical. You can argue the Skins have a much better Defense, but I would argue the Broncos Offense (O-line, WR and most importantly the same offensive system) has been better than ours. With that said, I don't care what kind of numbers a QB puts up...winning is the name of the game. For their careers, it's a wash. The difference between these two guys is Campbell is a football player, a real gamer. Cutler is a whiney a$$ biznitch and a prima-dona (no clue if that's spelled correctly). Like I've previously stated, you can't tell if Campbell just threw a TD or an INT by his demeanor. Nothing seems to bother him. That's what I want in a QB. Let's give Campbell a second year in the same system. He hasn't been in the same system in consecutive years in the NFL yet.

BTW...Doug Williams was a career journeyman and the Skins did pretty well with him in 87...it's not just about the QB.

HAIL!

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by SkinzzFan

Cutler may have better numbers than Campbell, but their career records are virtually identical. You can argue the Skins have a much better Defense, but I would argue the Broncos Offense (O-line, WR and most importantly the same offensive system) has been better than ours. With that said, I don't care what kind of numbers a QB puts up...winning is the name of the game. For their careers, it's a wash. The difference between these two guys is Campbell is a football player, a real gamer. Cutler is a whiney a$$ biznitch and a prima-dona (no clue if that's spelled correctly). Like I've previously stated, you can't tell if Campbell just threw a TD or an INT by his demeanor. Nothing seems to bother him. That's what I want in a QB. Let's give Campbell a second year in the same system. He hasn't been in the same system in consecutive years in the NFL yet.

BTW...Doug Williams was a career journeyman and the Skins did pretty well with him in 87...it's not just about the QB.

HAIL!

I think that pretty much bottom lines it. I agree.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Zorn has a year left to prove himself, I don't think he's going to want to risk it by teaching another QB his system all over again. And you overlook the fact that Cutler's 2nd year was under the same offense and coach.

Campbell is like a large Millstone around Zorns neck. Zorns best change to extend his head coaching career beyond 2009 is to get a quarterback capeable of growing and improving in his system. If Zorn sticks with campbell all year, its almost 100% garaunteed that BOTH will be gone next year.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I agree that he won't be one of the top 3 or 4 in the league ever, but he can be everything that Cutler is and will be if we put the right team around him.

which is easier - to invest everything you have and rework your entire offense to help make one mediocre quarterback look good.... or just go get yourself a good quarterback who can make everyone around him look better?

As far as Cutler wanting more money... he will, but not now. We wouldnt have to worry about extending him until next year if we brought him here.

That said, i dont really think we'd land Cutler, even if we were really going after him.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Campbell is like a large Millstone around Zorns neck. Zorns best change to extend his head coaching career beyond 2009 is to get a quarterback capeable of growing and improving in his system. If Zorn sticks with campbell all year, its almost 100% garaunteed that BOTH will be gone next year.



which is easier - to invest everything you have and rework your entire offense to help make one mediocre quarterback look good.... or just go get yourself a good quarterback who can make everyone around him look better?

As far as Cutler wanting more money... he will, but not now. We wouldnt have to worry about extending him until next year if we brought him here.

That said, i dont really think we'd land Cutler, even if we were really going after him.

Would you have made the same argument about Hasselback when he was benched by Zorn? or, if you were a Seattle fan, would you have been happy when they went to the SB with Hasselback.

Something else about this: if Zorn wanted Campbell gone, I guarantee he would be gone. Why, 1) because his career is on the line, 2) his reputation is on the line, 3) Danny seems really to listen to his coaches (some may disagree, but I think he always has), and 4) I don't believe salary cap wise its impossible like CP or JJ. So you can't say JC is a millstone, it is more so the girl he has brought to the party.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

which is easier - to invest everything you have and rework your entire offense to help make one mediocre quarterback look good.... or just go get yourself a good quarterback who can make everyone around him look better?

As far as Cutler wanting more money... he will, but not now. We wouldnt have to worry about extending him until next year if we brought him here.

That said, i dont really think we'd land Cutler, even if we were really going after him.

Okay, you've missed the point above. This isn't mediocre Jason Campbell vs. superior/all-mighty Jay Cutler. This is two players with the same exact skill set and career background, except one has a tendency to go downfield more often (higher YPA) and more efficiently, and is also far more prone to the big mistake (much higher INT rate) than the other.

And if you're asking which player fits better in Zorn's philosophy to micromanage the entire game, it's no question that Jason Campbell fits better.

But here's the really offensive thing: we have the undervalued player, and they have the overvalued player. So if there's anything serious about the trade talks, we've already committed an error. Well, the other offensive thing is that you think that Jay Cutler can be magically successful here if we don't rework the offensive line. Uh, no, no he cannot. Cutler is a young guy long on potential (like Campbell), but neither of them has ever posted a QB rating above 90. If you honestly think that coming here is going to put him over the hump into the elite "holier than Campbell" category, then you are very, very mistaken.

There's no question that Cutler will change the dynamic of our passing game. He just likely wouldn't make it any better.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Okay, you've missed the point above. This isn't mediocre Jason Campbell vs. superior/all-mighty Jay Cutler. This is two players with the same exact skill set and career background, except one has a tendency to go downfield more often (higher YPA) and more efficiently, and is also far more prone to the big mistake (much higher INT rate) than the other.

And if you're asking which player fits better in Zorn's philosophy to micromanage the entire game, it's no question that Jason Campbell fits better.

How can you claim (with a straight face) that Campbell fits Zorns offense better? I cant think of many worse mis-matches in football today. Campbells improvement (primarily fewer fumbles and INTs) is nothing more than a testament to Zorns teaching ability combined with Campbell being too scared to make a mistake. Cutler is by far a better QB for Zorns system and I have no doubt Cutler would cut his INTs in half and fumble less here. Cutler also had far fewer offensive weapons and a weaker offensive line and running back than Campbell has been blessed with.

Campbell has been given more tools to succeed than most young quarterbacks and he continues to fall short.

But here's the really offensive thing: we have the undervalued player, and they have the overvalued player. So if there's anything serious about the trade talks, we've already committed an error. Well, the other offensive thing is that you think that Jay Cutler can be magically successful here if we don't rework the offensive line. Uh, no, no he cannot. Cutler is a young guy long on potential (like Campbell), but neither of them has ever posted a QB rating above 90. If you honestly think that coming here is going to put him over the hump into the elite "holier than Campbell" category, then you are very, very mistaken.

There's no question that Cutler will change the dynamic of our passing game. He just likely wouldn't make it any better.

I dont think Campbell is undervalued or Cutler is overvalued at all. Campbell is nothing more than a mediocre quarterback. He's average. Cutler has been extremely impressive on a team with a horrible defense, weak offensive line, weak running game, although with better receivers than what Campbell had in washington. If Campbell had been behind denvers line and with their defense last year, theres no question he'd have been cut or traded already. The Campbell/Zorn marriage is never going to be successful. So far, chosing Zorn to be OC and later HC while keeping Campbell, is by far the worst thing Cerrato and Snyder have done in recent memory.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

How can you claim (with a straight face) that Campbell fits Zorns offense better? I cant think of many worse mis-matches in football today. Campbells improvement (primarily fewer fumbles and INTs) is nothing more than a testament to Zorns teaching ability combined with Campbell being too scared to make a mistake. Cutler is by far a better QB for Zorns system and I have no doubt Cutler would cut his INTs in half and fumble less here. Cutler also had far fewer offensive weapons and a weaker offensive line and running back than Campbell has been blessed with.

Campbell has been given more tools to succeed than most young quarterbacks and he continues to fall short.



I dont think Campbell is undervalued or Cutler is overvalued at all. Campbell is nothing more than a mediocre quarterback. He's average. Cutler has been extremely impressive on a team with a horrible defense, weak offensive line, weak running game, although with better receivers than what Campbell had in washington. If Campbell had been behind denvers line and with their defense last year, theres no question he'd have been cut or traded already. The Campbell/Zorn marriage is never going to be successful. So far, chosing Zorn to be OC and later HC while keeping Campbell, is by far the worst thing Cerrato and Snyder have done in recent memory.

I don't like the term "average" because too often, it is used to make an above average player seem worse than he really is. I don't know what you define as average, BHA, and it's very possible that Campbell is only average. But, then you see Cutler as better than average. But they are very similar players. So, you're putting one guy down (who happens to be the QB of your favorite team), to the point where you are clearly undervaluing his skill set in order to try to make a point.

Here's the thing: according to Football Outsiders, in 2008, the average performance from a quarterback was Dan Orlovsky/Trent Edwards

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

In their stats, an average performance always seems to be weighed down by the very worst players of the year, so average always comes out between the 20-25th best player at the position. This is only one way to define average, but I do not reject their assumption that there are more above average QBs in this league that start than below average QBs.

As you can see, Cutler was clearly more effective in Denver's offense last year than Campbell was in the Redskins. I am not disputing this. I'm disputing two things:

1) Why you think that Zorn's conservative, fundamentals-heavy style will mesh better with Cutler's caution-to-the-wind playing style than Campbell's.

and

2) When you replace Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal with Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El, and replace the Denver OL with the Washington OL, how you don't account for a significant drop in Cutler's output.

Obviously, if we don't improve on offense, Cutler isn't going to be as good here as he was in Denver. If we DO improve, he probably would be. And obviously, Campbell will be much better as well.

Campbell has been given more tools to succeed than most young quarterbacks and he continues to fall short.

What he's been given is a bunch of different terminology, and short, underwhelming receivers, and an aging OL. That's a lot of tools, but I would argue that save for an expansion team, that's pretty much as tough a situation as it gets for a young QB.

I kept a straight face though most of your points, but that one there was a little over the top, wouldn't you say?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I don't like the term "average" because too often, it is used to make an above average player seem worse than he really is. I don't know what you define as average, BHA, and it's very possible that Campbell is only average. But, then you see Cutler as better than average. But they are very similar players. So, you're putting one guy down (who happens to be the QB of your favorite team), to the point where you are clearly undervaluing his skill set in order to try to make a point.

Here's the thing: according to Football Outsiders, in 2008, the average performance from a quarterback was Dan Orlovsky/Trent Edwards

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

In their stats, an average performance always seems to be weighed down by the very worst players of the year, so average always comes out between the 20-25th best player at the position. This is only one way to define average, but I do not reject their assumption that there are more above average QBs in this league that start than below average QBs.

As you can see, Cutler was clearly more effective in Denver's offense last year than Campbell was in the Redskins. I am not disputing this. I'm disputing two things:

1) Why you think that Zorn's conservative style will mesh better with Cutler's caution-to-the-wind playing style than Campbell's.

and

2) When you replace Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal with Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El, and replace the Denver OL with the Washington OL, how you don't account for a significant drop in Cutler's output.

Obviously, if we don't improve on offense, Cutler isn't going to be as good here as he was in Denver. If we DO improve, he probably would be. And obviously, Campbell will be much better as well.



What he's been given is a bunch of different terminology, and short, underwhelming receivers, and an aging OL. That's a lot of tools, but I would argue that save for an expansion team, that's pretty much as tough a situation as it gets for a young QB.

It's the old grass is always greener philosophy.

I know a guy who is a Broncos fan and he thinks Cutler is a whiny little punk and he could really care less if they lose him.

It all depends on your perspective. Fans always undervalue their own players while they overvalue other team's players.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

It's the old grass is always greener philosophy.

I know a guy who is a Broncos fan and he thinks Cutler is a whiny little punk and he could really care less if they lose him.

It all depends on your perspective. Fans always undervalue their own players while they overvalue other team's players.

That sounds like what Snyder use to be accused of and fans hated him for it.