State of the Redskins - NFL Network Videos

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I care less about the interceptions than I do about the change in the amount of TDs we're giving up through the air.

The point is that we could have had an improved secondary without bearing any risk beyond 2009. That would have been such a great deal for us, improve secondary depth, and if our No. 2 corner isn't good enough, simple solution: Don't bring him back in 2010. Springs wouldn't have been brought back anyway, but we really could have used one more year of his services.

Instead, we now bear 20-30 million dollars in risk. And for what, really? The opportunity to have the position locked down for the next five years, assuming we can throw another huge contract at CR a year from now? It's silly, silly risk. Sure, we're looking for this move to pan out. Of course we want DHall/Rogers to be a CB tandem for many, many years into the future. And if it works out, we certainly can pay that contract.

Vinny feels really confident, apparently, that Hall won't fail here. Financially, way more confident than either the Falcons or the Raiders were when he failed there.

It's VERY clear that you aren't a D. Hall fan, not even willing to give him much credit at all. To be a little more balanced and factually accurate, he's been in the league 5 years, has 22 career interceptions and is a 2 time Pro Bowler. He's better, by far, than any other CB on the roster and his play making ability is unquestioned.

He clashed with Petrino (just like everyone else in the locker room) and talked his way out of Atlanta, but he was still playing at a high level. Everyone acknowledged he was in a bad system fit in Oakland and he played very well once he got here.

Maybe I am as naive as you are jaded but I don't believe he did an intentional and complete Jekell and Hyde routine just to get paid and now he's going to revert to Raider Hall.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

It's VERY clear that you aren't a D. Hall fan, not even willing to give him much credit at all. To be a little more balanced and factually accurate, he's been in the league 5 years, has 22 career interceptions and is a 2 time Pro Bowler. He's better, by far, than any other CB on the roster and his play making ability is unquestioned.

He clashed with Petrino (just like everyone else in the locker room) and talked his way out of Atlanta, but he was still playing at a high level. Everyone acknowledged he was in a bad system fit in Oakland and he played very well once he got here.

Maybe I am as naive as you are jaded but I don't believe he did an intentional and complete Jekell and Hyde routine just to get paid and now he's going to revert to Raider Hall.

Here, I found a guy that's even better than Hall and Rogers combined by your criteria of pro-bowls plus interception totals! He's even a free agent right now! I'm thinking 5 years, maybe 40-50 million! What says you:

Deltha O'Neal Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

The notion that Hall's skill is even comparable to Rogers is so unbelievably misinformed that I can't possibly understand why you'd even bring it up. What do you want me to say, "Yes Paintrain, we just found the best corner on our team in Week 10 last season sitting around with the unrestricted free agents. Every team that's ever given up on him has made a terrible, inexcusable mistake. He's just way better than anyone on our team right now, including Carlos Rogers, who is playing better than all but like 6 corners in the NFL right now. Sure, he signed here for less than a million dollars to play out the season, but I'm just so happy we're going to pay him like one of the league's best players now."

Root for him, but don't keep telling us he's better than Rogers. He's not. Plus, I'm pretty sure he already has an agent...

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Here, I found a guy that's even better than Hall and Rogers combined by your criteria of pro-bowls plus interception totals! He's even a free agent right now! I'm thinking 5 years, maybe 40-50 million! What says you:

Deltha O'Neal Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

The notion that Hall's skill is even comparable to Rogers is so unbelievably misinformed that I can't possibly understand why you'd even bring it up. What do you want me to say, "Yes Paintrain, we just found the best corner on our team in Week 10 last season sitting around with the unrestricted free agents. Every team that's ever given up on him has made a terrible, inexcusable mistake. He's just way better than anyone on our team right now, including Carlos Rogers, who is playing better than all but like 6 corners in the NFL right now. Sure, he signed here for less than a million dollars to play out the season, but I'm just so happy we're going to pay him like one of the league's best players now."

Root for him, but don't keep telling us he's better than Rogers. He's not. Plus, I'm pretty sure he already has an agent...

You think that Rogers is a better cover CB than Hall? Seriously? Perhaps you and Rogers are among the only ones who share that opinion. Besides dropping numerous easy interceptions Rogers was most known for getting beat for TD (Galloway game winner at Tampa, Burress game winner at Washington). He's improved and had an excellent first 6-7 games but if he was so clearly better then why was he relegated to 2nd string in the 2nd half of the season?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

You think that Rogers is a better cover CB than Hall? Seriously? Perhaps you and Rogers are among the only ones who share that opinion. Besides dropping numerous easy interceptions Rogers was most known for getting beat for TD (Galloway game winner at Tampa, Burress game winner at Washington). He's improved and had an excellent first 6-7 games but if he was so clearly better then why was he relegated to 2nd string in the 2nd half of the season?

Well, we lost to the Bengals and the 49ers with Rogers out of the lineup, and couldn't stop the air assault of Ryan Fitzpatick and Shaun Hill, so trust me, we didn't exactly improve by leaps and bounds with Rogers on the second team. In fact, our defense pretty clearly underacheived.

Since you clearly want a simpler, more to the point argument.

6-3 without Hall
2-5 with Hall

7-6 with Rogers starting
1-2 without Rogers starting

I don't believe in inherent winners and losers, obviously. You can have good players on bad teams and bad players on good teams. But, in the years that DHall was going to pro-bowls and getting a ton of INTs (2005 & 2006), the Atlanta Falcons went 8-8 and then 7-9. Then in Oakland, the Raiders went 2-5 with Hall on the team. We went 2-5 with him on the team.

DeAngelo Hall is a great athlete. It's totally justified to say he has little positive effect on the records of the teams he's on.

I wish I could be so jaded as to be able to slurp DeAngelo Hall has powerfully as you, but people here expect me to give honest, correct analysis from all things Redskins. Therefore, no matter how much crap you can throw against the wall here, my response on Hall will not change. If he fails out of a third city, not even the biggest of Hall sympathizers could possibly say he's not a bust. Washington is his very last chance, and consequently, this is a very critical year for his entire career.

Obviously.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, we lost to the Bengals and the 49ers with Rogers out of the lineup, and couldn't stop the air assault of Ryan Fitzpatick and Shaun Hill, so trust me, we didn't exactly improve by leaps and bounds with Rogers on the second team. In fact, our defense pretty clearly underacheived.

Since you clearly want a simpler, more to the point argument.

6-3 without Hall
2-5 with Hall

7-6 with Rogers starting
1-2 without Rogers starting

I don't believe in inherent winners and losers, obviously. You can have good players on bad teams and bad players on good teams. But, in the years that DHall was going to pro-bowls and getting a ton of INTs (2005 & 2006), the Atlanta Falcons went 8-8 and then 7-9. Then in Oakland, the Raiders went 2-5 with Hall on the team. We went 2-5 with him on the team.

DeAngelo Hall is a great athlete. It's totally justified to say he has little positive effect on the records of the teams he's on.

I wish I could be so jaded as to be able to slurp DeAngelo Hall has powerfully as you, but people here expect me to give honest, correct analysis from all things Redskins. Therefore, no matter how much crap you can throw against the wall here, my response on Hall will not change. If he fails out of a third city, not even the biggest of Hall sympathizers could possibly say he's not a bust. Washington is his very last chance, and consequently, this is a very critical year for his entire career.

Obviously.

(Do you get paid to do this? This quote made it sound like it.)

It is obvious that neither side is going to win right now. For those of us that are fine with the Hall signing, well we won't be 100% sure of this until we are well into the season. And for those of you that didn't agree with the signing, well Hall has been signed and there's nothing you can do about it.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

(Do you get paid to do this? This quote made it sound like it.)

It is obvious that neither side is going to win right now. For those of us that are fine with the Hall signing, well we won't be 100% sure of this until we are well into the season. And for those of you that didn't agree with the signing, well Hall has been signed and there's nothing you can do about it.

My rep is more important than any paycheck. Or at least what anyone would be willing to pay me

I think what I'm saying is being taken as: "I don't like the Hall signing, and you shouldn't either." No, I'm not enraged because fans are happy. My god, what kind of heartless existence would that be?!

Rather, I've done nothing but point out that we had a bad process going into this from a football perspective. I can prove that, and we certainly don't have to wait for results to point at something and say "that's messed up, we probably shouldn't have done that." Whether it works out in the end is kind of irrelevant, because we can't control that.

Nobody's rooting against Hall's success here. Simply looking at the deal from all possible angles.

And of course, anyone who entertains the thought that twice-fired Hall is somehow better than Rogers deserves whatever vitatrol comes out of my computer anyhow. Nothing will draw my ire faster than anyone who wants to try to strong-arm the opposition by appealing to authority on an incorrect issue. Promise

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

My rep is more important than any paycheck. Or at least what anyone would be willing to pay me

I think what I'm saying is being taken as: "I don't like the Hall signing, and you shouldn't either." No, I'm not enraged because fans are happy. My god, what kind of heartless existence would that be?!

Rather, I've done nothing but point out that we had a bad process going into this from a football perspective. I can prove that, and we certainly don't have to wait for results to point at something and say "that's messed up, we probably shouldn't have done that." Whether it works out in the end is kind of irrelevant, because we can't control that.

Nobody's rooting against Hall's success here. Simply looking at the deal from all possible angles.

And of course, anyone who entertains the thought that twice-fired Hall is somehow better than Rogers deserves whatever vitatrol comes out of my computer anyhow. Nothing will draw my ire faster than anyone who wants to try to strong-arm the opposition by appealing to authority on an incorrect issue. Promise

Thanks for clarifying things out, and I believe your assessments are fair (and your rep is safe ). I think (and hope) that Hall and Rogers compliment each other well. Rogers is better at coverage, but Hall can hold on to a pick, hopefully this will wok out as well as I think it will be. I also hope that Rogers gets a chip on his shoulder and let his abilities do the talk for him. He's going to be in a contract year, so if he hopes to either get re-signed or do well in free agency, he needs to come with his A+ game.

[redsk1]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

My rep is more important than any paycheck. Or at least what anyone would be willing to pay me

I think what I'm saying is being taken as: "I don't like the Hall signing, and you shouldn't either." No, I'm not enraged because fans are happy. My god, what kind of heartless existence would that be?!

Rather, I've done nothing but point out that we had a bad process going into this from a football perspective. I can prove that, and we certainly don't have to wait for results to point at something and say "that's messed up, we probably shouldn't have done that." Whether it works out in the end is kind of irrelevant, because we can't control that.

Nobody's rooting against Hall's success here. Simply looking at the deal from all possible angles.

And of course, anyone who entertains the thought that twice-fired Hall is somehow better than Rogers deserves whatever vitatrol comes out of my computer anyhow. Nothing will draw my ire faster than anyone who wants to try to strong-arm the opposition by appealing to authority on an incorrect issue. Promise

I hear ya. Not a big fan of D. Hall. He's really not know as a pure cover corner. CR's is probably more of a pure cover corner than Hall.

I'm not a big fan of Hall simply b/c he's had "issues" whereever he's been. VA Tech, Atl, and Oakland. Really it's not just that, it's that we overpaid for a malcontent. Yeah, yeah, i know, he's turned over a new leaf. He was a model citizen after all for 2 months when facing his last shot for a new contract or bust.

Hey, i hope he does well. I just wonder what he'll be like at the first sign of adversity.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by MiraclesHappen07

huh, interesting. Seems like they say that what hurt us was lack of offensive plays from qb, and wide recivers, now why im not saying thats set by no means, but a lot of that has to do with our oline. It broke down through the year cuz of age. That why i hope the skins go online, preferbly RT with 13, soooo untill we can improve an aging line and give campbell the fair shake at things before he gets all the blame yet. lol yeah i know this is the evergoing disscusion on here, but hey it the truth!!!!....i hope...i really want campbell to succed

The fact that they didn't mention offensive line during the segment made it a worthless.
*Although i liked the Moss segment about the double move, but alas in the second half of the season we didn't really have the time it takes to complete those types of passes.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, we lost to the Bengals and the 49ers with Rogers out of the lineup, and couldn't stop the air assault of Ryan Fitzpatick and Shaun Hill, so trust me, we didn't exactly improve by leaps and bounds with Rogers on the second team. In fact, our defense pretty clearly underacheived.

GT i agree w/ you about the Skins paying more for Hall then they had to (another attempt by Synder to buy loyalty)
But i think that Hall could become a great corner here, just call it a hunch.
When he says he wanted to be here i think he's being honest.
I'm sure you know his ties to the area
I think that coaches Gray and Jackson can get the best out of him
I believe he's motivated to reach his potential.

Also, just for the sake of accuracy Rogers didn't start but he did play in the Bengals and 49ers games:

NFL Video Galleries
43 seconds in he gives up a TD to Chris Henry

NFL Video Galleries
53 seconds Intercepts Shaun Hill

I like the tandem of Hall and Rogers, its Smooter/Tryon i'm worried about.

HTTR!

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, we lost to the Bengals and the 49ers with Rogers out of the lineup, and couldn't stop the air assault of Ryan Fitzpatick and Shaun Hill, so trust me, we didn't exactly improve by leaps and bounds with Rogers on the second team. In fact, our defense pretty clearly underacheived.

Since you clearly want a simpler, more to the point argument.

6-3 without Hall
2-5 with Hall

7-6 with Rogers starting
1-2 without Rogers starting

I don't believe in inherent winners and losers, obviously. You can have good players on bad teams and bad players on good teams. But, in the years that DHall was going to pro-bowls and getting a ton of INTs (2005 & 2006), the Atlanta Falcons went 8-8 and then 7-9. Then in Oakland, the Raiders went 2-5 with Hall on the team. We went 2-5 with him on the team.

DeAngelo Hall is a great athlete. It's totally justified to say he has little positive effect on the records of the teams he's on.

I wish I could be so jaded as to be able to slurp DeAngelo Hall has powerfully as you, but people here expect me to give honest, correct analysis from all things Redskins. Therefore, no matter how much crap you can throw against the wall here, my response on Hall will not change. If he fails out of a third city, not even the biggest of Hall sympathizers could possibly say he's not a bust. Washington is his very last chance, and consequently, this is a very critical year for his entire career.

Obviously.

We'll agree to disagree and see how they both play and discuss at the end of '09. As confident as you are in Rogers being better than Hall, I am as confident Hall is better than Rogers. In a perfect Redskins world they will be a dynamic CB tandem and make the entire defense better.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

We'll agree to disagree and see how they both play and discuss at the end of '09. As confident as you are in Rogers being better than Hall, I am as confident Hall is better than Rogers. In a perfect Redskins world they will be a dynamic CB tandem and make the entire defense better.

That's the plan. I hope it works.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

We'll agree to disagree and see how they both play and discuss at the end of '09. As confident as you are in Rogers being better than Hall, I am as confident Hall is better than Rogers. In a perfect Redskins world they will be a dynamic CB tandem and make the entire defense better.

The problem is that if Rogers has a great year he would either have to be franchised or traded cause we won't be able to afford 2 expensive DB's.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Here, I found a guy that's even better than Hall and Rogers combined by your criteria of pro-bowls plus interception totals! He's even a free agent right now! I'm thinking 5 years, maybe 40-50 million! What says you:

Deltha O'Neal Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

The notion that Hall's skill is even comparable to Rogers is so unbelievably misinformed that I can't possibly understand why you'd even bring it up. What do you want me to say, "Yes Paintrain, we just found the best corner on our team in Week 10 last season sitting around with the unrestricted free agents. Every team that's ever given up on him has made a terrible, inexcusable mistake. He's just way better than anyone on our team right now, including Carlos Rogers, who is playing better than all but like 6 corners in the NFL right now. Sure, he signed here for less than a million dollars to play out the season, but I'm just so happy we're going to pay him like one of the league's best players now."

Root for him, but don't keep telling us he's better than Rogers. He's not. Plus, I'm pretty sure he already has an agent...

If Deltha O'Neal is so great, he'd still be playing for Darth Hoody, instead the team took a gamble on injury-prone Shawn Springs. So I don't think your argument holds anything here.

Now, I don't watch tape nor am I some sort of expert evaluator of NFL players. But here are Scouts Inc rankings on the CBs discussed on this thread:

Deltha O'Neal - 66
Carlos Rogers - 69
Deangelo Hall - 83

So according to them, Hall is the better CB, and well that's good enough for me. Honestly, complaining about his signing won't do anything.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

If Deltha O'Neal is so great, he'd still be playing for Darth Hoody, instead the team took a gamble on injury-prone Shawn Springs. So I don't think your argument holds anything here.

Now, I don't watch tape nor am I some sort of expert evaluator of NFL players. But here are Scouts Inc rankings on the CBs discussed on this thread:

Deltha O'Neal - 66
Carlos Rogers - 69
Deangelo Hall - 83

So according to them, Hall is the better CB, and well that's good enough for me. Honestly, complaining about his signing won't do anything.

Scouts Inc. has very little credibility in league circles, but if you buy that, I mean, that's what they are there for. They're just fans like the rest of us. They just get paid.

The point with O'Neal is that he's not great. He's just has ALL the same credentials Hall does. Even being cut by two different teams, though not quite as unceremoniously. The goal was to put into perspective how meaningless Pro Bowls and INTs are. That's not how we measure defensive players.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Scouts Inc. has very little credibility in league circles, but if you buy that, I mean, that's what they are there for. They're just fans like the rest of us. They just get paid.

I'm sure people will think I'm just jumping to Scouts Inc. defense here because of their association with ESPN...but what are you talking about? Scouts Inc. is largely comprised of people who spent years as scouts and team executives at the highest levels. Yes, they're fans but not just like the rest of us. Little credibility in league circles? Yet they're still being sought after and hired by NFL teams. So what league are you talking about?