6 Years Later Iraq Better but Still Shaky

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by saden1

Your assessment to me boils down to the highlighted line. According to you Vietnam was a win, Korea was a win. As with everything in life taking a long term view tremendously increases the chance of success. I could take the same long term view with respect to Iraq and say in 100 years Iraq would become a "democracy" without us having to go to war.

Well, I do think life is better viewed in a longterm view, and I think it is a big stretch to say Iraq would necessarily have been a democracy in 100 years without our involvement.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Well, I do think life is better viewed in a longterm view, and I think it is a big stretch to say Iraq would necessarily have been a democracy in 100 years without our involvement.

I don't think we can really call Iraq a democracy until we are out of there and they are having fair and honest elections on their own. The hope is that they stay a democracy and it spreads over the middle east but thats asking alot.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I don't think we can really call Iraq a democracy until we are out of there and they are having fair and honest elections on their own. The hope is that they stay a democracy and it spreads over the middle east but thats asking alot.

Let me ask you this. Would you call Germany circa 1976 a democracy? Remember our troops were there. Our influence was certainly there. It had no solid tradition, without United States soldiers staying there for democracy to take hold. In fact, one could easily devise an alternate history where another sphere of influence prevailed and Germany became a socialist state. If the rights which we cherish are indeed rights that are inalienable (i read that somewhere) then us maintaining a sphere of influence to protect and extend those rights has merit and value.

Patriotic Rant follows:

NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE LAST 1000 YEARS, has impacted in as positive a way, this world's course, as the United States of America. Hundreds of Thousands of Americans have given their life for the ultimate belief that every person on this earth has sanctity and faith and merit solely because that person was born. We have fought many a good fight in order to protect the world from the tyranny of the few, even while suffering the vitriolic attacks of those who hate us. Seriously, if we are an oppressing/occupying force we could rule this world by brute force, but we seek counsel, we listen to dissent, we work with every government that allows their citizens to have basic human dignity. Yes we do make mistakes, we assume our way is right, we sometimes do bone-headed moves, but we do not OCCUPY Iraq. Go ask a West German citizen which country they wanted to have on their side, go ask an East German, guess what both will say they want the Americans. Go travel on the road from west germany to berlin, see what happens when you get into an oppressed country's area. Their land was used and cast off, their people had what was theirs taken from them and given to the oppressing country.
end patriotic rant

[saden1]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Let me ask you this. Would you call Germany circa 1976 a democracy? Remember our troops were there. Our influence was certainly there. It had no solid tradition, without United States soldiers staying there for democracy to take hold. In fact, one could easily devise an alternate history where another sphere of influence prevailed and Germany became a socialist state. If the rights which we cherish are indeed rights that are inalienable (i read that somewhere) then us maintaining a sphere of influence to protect and extend those rights has merit and value.

Patriotic Rant follows:

NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE LAST 1000 YEARS, has impacted in as positive a way, this world's course, as the United States of America. Hundreds of Thousands of Americans have given their life for the ultimate belief that every person on this earth has sanctity and faith and merit solely because that person was born. We have fought many a good fight in order to protect the world from the tyranny of the few, even while suffering the vitriolic attacks of those who hate us. Seriously, if we are an oppressing/occupying force we could rule this world by brute force, but we seek counsel, we listen to dissent, we work with every government that allows their citizens to have basic human dignity. Yes we do make mistakes, we assume our way is right, we sometimes do bone-headed moves, but we do not OCCUPY Iraq. Go ask a West German citizen which country they wanted to have on their side, go ask an East German, guess what both will say they want the Americans. Go travel on the road from west germany to berlin, see what happens when you get into an oppressed country's area. Their land was used and cast off, their people had what was theirs taken from them and given to the oppressing country.
end patriotic rant

American century yes, American millennium? That's a bit premature don't you think seeing how we haven't even reached the half way mark yet.