Broncos to trade Cutler

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by celts32

I agree the pro bowl is garbage...I just think he's shown a lot of promise at a young age. You can't play with the stats all you want to make Campbell look just as promising but when you watch the games you see that he's just not. If Cutler were not available I would want to see what Campbell could do this year but Cutler being available changes that in my mind.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Buster

Of course he's made some nice plays...but at the end of the day he averages 1 or 2 TD's a game. Look I am not a Campbell basher...and I don't want to start being one. I am more pro Cutler then I am anti Campbell. If Cutler is off the table I am happy to go into the season with Campbell.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by celts32

Of course he's made some nice plays...but at the end of the day he averages 1 or 2 TD's a game. Look I am not a Campbell basher...and I don't want to start being one. I am more pro Cutler then I am anti Campbell. If Cutler is off the table I am happy to go into the season with Campbell.

If Cutler is going to cost two # 1s then he should be off the table, the difference between Cutler and Campbell is not that great to give up even a single # 1. I said initially Campbell and a 3rd would be the most I'd give up.

- What's Cutler going to do with sub 5'10" starting receivers and an old/injury prone OL?
- If you look at his game logs, he's not setting the world on fire week-in & week-out. He'll have a monster game (usually against a sub-par D) and then throw 2 picks and an 0 TDs.
- Outside of the first 3 games of 2008, the Denver O wasn't "lighting it up" by any means.
- By the middle of the season, folks in Denver were talking about Cutler being a bust and possibly gone after 2008.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

If Cutler is going to cost two # 1s then he should be off the table, the difference between Cutler and Campbell is not that great to give up even a single # 1. I said initially Campbell and a 3rd would be the most I'd give up.

- What's Cutler going to do with sub 5'10" starting receivers and an old/injury prone OL?
- If you look at his game logs, he's not setting the world on fire week-in & week-out. He'll have a monster game (usually against a sub-par D) and then throw 2 picks and an 0 TDs.
- Outside of the first 3 games of 2008, the Denver O wasn't "lighting it up" by any means.
- By the middle of the season, folks in Denver were talking about Cutler being a bust and possibly gone after 2008.

They're saying that Denver doesn't want Campbell

so obviously they're putting their stock in Simms, the draft, or somebody else in the mix's qb (umm who has one better than campbell?)

I like campbell but things like this show how we seem to overvalue our players, we can't even ship the guy we say we need to give a chance to become our franchise qb, kinda telling no?

[irish]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

They're saying that Denver doesn't want Campbell

so obviously they're putting their stock in Simms, the draft, or somebody else in the mix's qb (umm who has one better than campbell?)

I like campbell but things like this show how we seem to overvalue our players, we can't even ship the guy we say we need to give a chance to become our franchise qb, kinda telling no?

Its very telling. Why would Denver or anyone want Campbell? Everyone but Skins fans realize he's not going to get better.

I am not sold on Cutler as a franchise QB but I think he would be a huge improvement over JC. I'm not sure the Skins need a franchise QB but they do need a QB that can make quick reads, and get the ball out fast. He also needs to be able to throw downfield. I think Cutler can do that. Is he the next Tom Brady, I doubt it but he's better than most of the QBs out there.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

If Cutler is going to cost two # 1s then he should be off the table, the difference between Cutler and Campbell is not that great to give up even a single # 1. I said initially Campbell and a 3rd would be the most I'd give up.

- What's Cutler going to do with sub 5'10" starting receivers and an old/injury prone OL?
- If you look at his game logs, he's not setting the world on fire week-in & week-out. He'll have a monster game (usually against a sub-par D) and then throw 2 picks and an 0 TDs.
- Outside of the first 3 games of 2008, the Denver O wasn't "lighting it up" by any means.
- By the middle of the season, folks in Denver were talking about Cutler being a bust and possibly gone after 2008.

We just differ on how good we think Cutler is. It's pretty clear that the people inside the NFL place a far greater value on Cutler then you do.

[celts32]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

If Cutler is going to cost two # 1s then he should be off the table, the difference between Cutler and Campbell is not that great to give up even a single # 1. I said initially Campbell and a 3rd would be the most I'd give up.

- What's Cutler going to do with sub 5'10" starting receivers and an old/injury prone OL?
- If you look at his game logs, he's not setting the world on fire week-in & week-out. He'll have a monster game (usually against a sub-par D) and then throw 2 picks and an 0 TDs.
- Outside of the first 3 games of 2008, the Denver O wasn't "lighting it up" by any means.
- By the middle of the season, folks in Denver were talking about Cutler being a bust and possibly gone after 2008.

I said before I don't want to get into Campbell bashing becasue that's not my MO...but I am tired of the bad OL crutch we give Campbell. The Steelers OL was horrible for most of the season and Ben always managed to make the playes needed for them to win. Do you think they would have won the Super Bowl with Campbell as starter?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by celts32

I said before I don't want to get into Campbell bashing becasue that's not my MO...but I am tired of the bad OL crutch we give Campbell. The Steelers OL was horrible for most of the season and Ben always managed to make the playes needed for them to win. Do you think they would have won the Super Bowl with Campbell as starter?

I'm tired of this crappy "OL crutch" argument. I've blown this up in numerous posts so no need to re-type everything. Bottom line, have you ever played behind or coached with a poor OL at any level? My guess is No.

The following quotes are all mine from other posts/threads on the Campbell subject

- "....as the OL goes, so goes any offense. If an OL struggles I don't care who is at QB, they will struggle. Peyton Manning struggled early in the year with the OL injuries in Indy."

- "Poor argument. The Steelers success this year had a lot more to do with their # 1 defense than their offense. Big Ben's QB rating was actually 80.1 (JCs was 84.3) and his production was way off from last year when his OL was solid. The Steeler run game dropped off from last year from # 3, to # 23 in Yds. The Steeler offensive ratings are all in the bottom half of the league. This indicates pretty clearly that an OL drop-off hurts any offense, and is critical to offensive success."


- "After Week 2 and up until the Steelers game, the JC bashing crowd was nowhere to be found. Did JC magically just go from being one of the top performers in the league to being crap in 2-3 weeks? Did Portis go from being a top performer to crap in 2-3 weeks? Or maybe OL problems were really the major issue for our poor offensive performance."

- "The same arguments were made last off-season, those who supported Campbell last off-season were correct. He improved significantly from last season. This is not a point for dispute, it is fact. JC is not the problem, we've got issues on the OL that must be addressed or we will struggle in 2009."

- "I wish I had the sources you have around the "whole league". As most of the JC bashers, your analysis isn't based on any logic, stats or football knowledge. It's just a bunch of the same negative buzz-words/phrases parroted by those who want to be able to say "I told you so" when Campbell struggles. But, you same guys are going to be nowhere to be found when Campbell raises his QB rating into the 90s if we solidify the OL."

- "With a healthy OL he (JC) was putting up Pro Bowl level numbers in the first 8 games, first season in the WCO, with a below average WR corps."

- "It's interesting that when you look at Jason Campbell's QB rating numbers it confirms what can be seen about the offense....against good defenses the OL is overmatched. JC has played well this year, he's made a lot of plays either by a quick release or movement in (or out of) the pocket that could've ended in disaster. His turn-overs are down and overall his QB rating is up, despite the OL being in much worse shape than last year."

- "Let's look at reality here, we'll finish either 8-8 or 9-7. A Pete Kendell fumble and a poor first half against CIN don't happen and we're 10-6 or 11-5. This is with a new HC, an unproven young QB, a defense with no real playmakers in the front 7, and a secondary that was questionable in the pre-season."

Do you think we'll go 10-6 or 11-5 next year if we trade for Cutler? If we do (make the trade) then how do we address our holes at RT, LDE, OLB if we give up our # 1 this year and a # 1 or # 2 next year? Also keep in mind we may be able to fill two of our holes by trading down the # 13 this year.

From BHA's post # 575 "Frank Hammerhan is on ESPN980 right now and he just said that Zorn has no say in any of this. Earlier in the offseason, Zorn specifically told Cerrato and Snyder that he beleived Campbell would be successful in this system..."

I'll take this as a true statement. I trust Zorn's evaluation and judgement of Campbell a lot more than your "people around the NFL" comment. I agree Cutler is an upgrade over Campbell, but not a drastic one. Why would Denver want to take what they perceive as a step back. Even if they were interested in JC, they wouldn't say so or leak it publicly when they're floating a two #1 scenario for Cutler.

Also, just because Denver has "asked" for two # 1s doesn't mean they'll get it. Don't you think they're trying to set the market and also set themselves up for a reunion with Cutler when they can't get the # 1s they want. They hold the leverage, Cutler is under contract so why shouldn't they go for broke and try to set an unreasonable price. I hope we're not the ones dumb enough to pay it.

[RedTempleSkin]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I'm tired of this crappy "OL crutch" argument. I've blown this up in numerous posts so no need to re-type everything. Bottom line, have you ever played behind or coached with a poor OL at any level? My guess is No.

The following quotes are all mine from other posts/threads on the Campbell subject

- "....as the OL goes, so goes any offense. If an OL struggles I don't care who is at QB, they will struggle. Peyton Manning struggled early in the year with the OL injuries in Indy."

- "Poor argument. The Steelers success this year had a lot more to do with their # 1 defense than their offense. Big Ben's QB rating was actually 80.1 (JCs was 84.3) and his production was way off from last year when his OL was solid. The Steeler run game dropped off from last year from # 3, to # 23 in Yds. The Steeler offensive ratings are all in the bottom half of the league. This indicates pretty clearly that an OL drop-off hurts any offense, and is critical to offensive success."


- "After Week 2 and up until the Steelers game, the JC bashing crowd was nowhere to be found. Did JC magically just go from being one of the top performers in the league to being crap in 2-3 weeks? Did Portis go from being a top performer to crap in 2-3 weeks? Or maybe OL problems were really the major issue for our poor offensive performance."

- "The same arguments were made last off-season, those who supported Campbell last off-season were correct. He improved significantly from last season. This is not a point for dispute, it is fact. JC is not the problem, we've got issues on the OL that must be addressed or we will struggle in 2009."

- "I wish I had the sources you have around the "whole league". As most of the JC bashers, your analysis isn't based on any logic, stats or football knowledge. It's just a bunch of the same negative buzz-words/phrases parroted by those who want to be able to say "I told you so" when Campbell struggles. But, you same guys are going to be nowhere to be found when Campbell raises his QB rating into the 90s if we solidify the OL."

- "With a healthy OL he (JC) was putting up Pro Bowl level numbers in the first 8 games, first season in the WCO, with a below average WR corps."

]
"It's interesting that when you look at Jason Campbell's QB rating numbers it confirms what can be seen about the offense....against good defenses the OL is overmatched. JC has played well this year, he's made a lot of plays either by a quick release or movement in (or out of) the pocket that could've ended in disaster. His turn-overs are down and overall his QB rating is up, despite the OL being in much worse shape than last year."[

- "Let's look at reality here, we'll finish either 8-8 or 9-7. A Pete Kendell fumble and a poor first half against CIN don't happen and we're 10-6 or 11-5. This is with a new HC, an unproven young QB, a defense with no real playmakers in the front 7, and a secondary that was questionable in the pre-season."

Do you think we'll go 10-6 or 11-5 next year if we trade for Cutler? If we do then how do we address our holes at RT, LDE, OLB if we give up our # 1 this year and a # 1 or # 2 next year? Also keep in mind we may be able to fill two of our holes by trading down the # 13 this year.

From BHA's post # 575 "Frank Hammerhan is on ESPN980 right now and he just said that Zorn has no say in any of this. Earlier in the offseason, Zorn specifically told Cerrato and Snyder that he beleived Campbell would be successful in this system..."

I'll take this as a true statement. I trust Zorn's evaluation and judgement of Campbell a lot more than your "people around the NFL" comment. I agree Cutler is an upgrade over Campbell, but not a drastic one. Why would Denver want to take what they perceive as a step back. Even if they were interested in JC, they wouldn't say so or leak it publicly when they're floating a two #1 scenario for Cutler.

Also, just because Denver has "asked" for two # 1s doesn't mean they'll get it. Don't you think they're trying to set the market and also set themselves up for a reunion with Cutler when they can't get the # 1s they want. They hold the leverage, Cutler is under contract so why shouldn't they go for broke and try to set an unreasonable price. I hope we're not the ones dumb enough to pay it.

This comment says so much, Cutler did not play in the NFC east, he did not go against 3 top 10 defenses within his own devision 6 times. There was no top 10 defense in the AFC west. He also had to throw the football because of no running game, this is why he had the passing yards that many are in love with. We should look more to the passing efficiency numbers for this pass happy guy, we will see no viable improvement over what we have, and we will still keep our draft picks to improve our weaknesses.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by RedTempleSkin

This comment says so much, Cutler did not play in the NFC east, he did not go against 3 top 10 defenses within his own devision 6 times. There was no top 10 defense in the AFC west. He also had to throw the football because of no running game, this is why he had the passing yards that many are in love with. We should look more to the passing efficiency numbers for this pass happy guy, we will see no viable improvement over what we have, and we will still keep our draft picks to improve our weaknesses.

Last year when Cutler played against a decent defense he lost 41-7 to New England. You know NE that had a QB that had never started an NFL before last year.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by celts32

Of course he's made some nice plays...but at the end of the day he averages 1 or 2 TD's a game. Look I am not a Campbell basher...and I don't want to start being one. I am more pro Cutler then I am anti Campbell. If Cutler is off the table I am happy to go into the season with Campbell.

Cutler averages 1 or 2 INTs a game and is a petulant little crybaby. Campbell is a team player who has proven he can be GREAT and play mistake-free football while going down field and make us a winner...if the team around him holds up. Even after the line fell apart and the rookie WRs failed to show up, he made a lot of plays out of nothing on his own. He's more mobile and accurate than Cutler.

Those clips were more than "nice plays". They show he understands the position, sees the field and can turn broken plays into big gains both on the ground and in the air. They also show that he's still getting better. He did have a fumbling problem two years ago. Last season, not only was that issue resolved, but he didn't throw any picks for half the season. Cutler is an interception machine. Look at Campbell's pocket presence in those clips...or any clip where he's not being sacked within 2 seconds. His feet are always moving and he's always scanning through his WRs. He honestly looks like Peyton Manning in that aspect. He doesn't have Peyton's arm, but he does have a very good, strong arm and can pull the ball in and take off for a 20+yard run if everyone is covered.

Long-term, I trust Campbell a LOT more than Cutler. Not only because he'll do his job without crying, but because he has steadily been getting better every year and I expect his development and success to continue.