It's Over: Cutler Going to Chicago

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

ortons a horrible qb - he's not good for any system. if the excuse for campbell that he has had a bad offensive line is legit -no way anyone takes orton over campbell. ortons sucked it up behind a dominant line for years.

even if you hold to that argument, then how do you respond to the fact that no one thought campbell was worth a 2nd rounder?

campbells not that good. even his team mates in trying to defend him admitted that by saying the constant system changes were 'keeping him from being good.'

what's it going to take for people to realize campbell is not that good of a qb?

Ok so why did McDaniels want Orton then??

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Ok so why did McDaniels want Orton then??

because orton, as horrible as he is, is really a better, more teachable QB than campbell.

no matter what system he's in, campbell will always stare down his receivers, be afraid to look deep, not go through his reads, have a slow release, and hold on to the ball too long. he's got a great attitude but he's not franchise QB material.

the way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

because orton, as horrible as he is, is really a better, more teachable QB than campbell.

no matter what system he's in, campbell will always stare down his receivers, be afraid to look deep, not go through his reads, have a slow release, and hold on to the ball too long. he's got a great attitude but he's not franchise QB material.

the way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

I'm still not understanding your logic but I'll just leave it at that.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

because orton, as horrible as he is, is really a better, more teachable QB than campbell.

no matter what system he's in, campbell will always stare down his receivers, be afraid to look deep, not go through his reads, have a slow release, and hold on to the ball too long. he's got a great attitude but he's not franchise QB material.

the way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

I find your posts interesting yet funny at times BHA. How many offenses has Campbell learned in the last 7-8 years? What makes Horton more teachable?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

because orton, as horrible as he is, is really a better, more teachable QB than campbell.

no matter what system he's in, campbell will always stare down his receivers, be afraid to look deep, not go through his reads, have a slow release, and hold on to the ball too long. he's got a great attitude but he's not franchise QB material.

the way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

McDaniels is saying the right things on Orton now, but Orton may be a stop-gap depending on what the Broncos do on draft day. That being said, Orton comes from Joe Tiller's spread at Purdue and did very well in it. The Purdue offense is similar to what McDaniels will be putting in at Denver.

Your assessment of Campbell couldn't be more wrong IMO, but you and I have beat that horse to death. I don't think we learned the "Redskins" don't want Campbell. At the end of yesterday the Skins didn't make the trade for whatever reason. Zorn publicly and behind the scenes supported Campbell. Hard to say where VC and Snyder stood on this and who was pushing for what. We'll never know the truth on that.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

The way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

3. The Redskins aren't thrilled with Colt Brennan, either.

By "The Redskins" I, of course, mean Dan Snyder. No other opinion counts.

[GMScud]

Good stuff from JC in today's Wash Post:

"With all this stuff going on, I just kept thinking about the things we can do as an offense, the things we can do as a team, and that's what I stayed focused on. I'm never going to let what other people do stop me from trying to be the best I can be for my coaches and my teammates." While Campbell conducted himself professionally as the Redskins shopped him, and took the high road again yesterday, he is a proud person and his calm demeanor should not be mistaken as a sign of weakness, a source close to Campbell said.


"In a lot of ways, you have a lot of feelings about this, but there's also a lot of stuff you just keep on the inside," Campbell said. "You just go out there with a little bit more passion, a little bit more of a chip on your shoulder. Out of all of this, something good has got to come out of it.


"Maybe it's just that you stay positive, you keep working hard for the people that matter to you and you keep trying to be the best you can be. I really believe that everything I've gone through only prepares me to be a stronger person and a stronger quarterback. But this also shows you a lot. It shows you your true value to some people."



Here's my paraphrase: "Basically my teammates and coaches are who matter to me, and that's who I'm playing for. I see now what Danny and Vinny think of me, and that will just make me play harder. I've got some things I'd like to say about the Front Office, but I'll keep it to myself."

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Good stuff from JC in today's Wash Post:

"With all this stuff going on, I just kept thinking about the things we can do as an offense, the things we can do as a team, and that's what I stayed focused on. I'm never going to let what other people do stop me from trying to be the best I can be for my coaches and my teammates." While Campbell conducted himself professionally as the Redskins shopped him, and took the high road again yesterday, he is a proud person and his calm demeanor should not be mistaken as a sign of weakness, a source close to Campbell said.


"In a lot of ways, you have a lot of feelings about this, but there's also a lot of stuff you just keep on the inside," Campbell said. "You just go out there with a little bit more passion, a little bit more of a chip on your shoulder. Out of all of this, something good has got to come out of it.


"Maybe it's just that you stay positive, you keep working hard for the people that matter to you and you keep trying to be the best you can be. I really believe that everything I've gone through only prepares me to be a stronger person and a stronger quarterback. But this also shows you a lot. It shows you your true value to some people."



Here's my paraphrase: "Basically my teammates and coaches are who matter to me, and that's who I'm playing for. I see now what Danny and Vinny think of me, and that will just make me play harder. I've got some things I'd like to say about the Front Office, but I'll keep it to myself."

I think you nailed it GMScud.

[redskinsgirl]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

because orton, as horrible as he is, is really a better, more teachable QB than campbell.

no matter what system he's in, campbell will always stare down his receivers, be afraid to look deep, not go through his reads, have a slow release, and hold on to the ball too long. he's got a great attitude but he's not franchise QB material.

the way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

Bears had more offer Broncos than the skins did. Also Orton really isn't in the Broncos plans to be QB its Sanchez.

Some fans say he holds the ball to long and has a slow release. Please explain. I don't see his release being slower than most of the starting QBs in the NFL.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

because orton, as horrible as he is, is really a better, more teachable QB than campbell.

no matter what system he's in, campbell will always stare down his receivers, be afraid to look deep, not go through his reads, have a slow release, and hold on to the ball too long. he's got a great attitude but he's not franchise QB material.

the way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

You can officially be declared insane.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

because orton, as horrible as he is, is really a better, more teachable QB than campbell.

no matter what system he's in, campbell will always stare down his receivers, be afraid to look deep, not go through his reads, have a slow release, and hold on to the ball too long. he's got a great attitude but he's not franchise QB material.

the way I see it, we learned two things yesterday:

1. The Redskins don't want Jason Campbell.
2. Neither does anyone else.

BHA, if you'll remember like two months ago, when you were offering Campbell for Chris Simms and stuff, I pointed out that no team is going to give a second round pick for a player they don't think you value. The only thing we learned yesterday is, that I was right.

Understandably, you value Campbell as equivalent to a second round pick for some team that doesn't have a quarterback. Evidence disagrees with you on that, but let's assume you are right, and Campbell truly is a mediocre player who is going to peak within the next year or so and never break into the top ten QBs. The assumption you are making is that: Every team that doesn't have a quarterback would be willing to trade a valuable 2nd round pick for the last year of Campbell's rookie contract.

But here's the thing: There isn't a team in the NFL that doesn't believe there's an NFL quality QB somewhere on the roster. The Jets think Brett Ratliff is as good as Campbell. The Lions think that Drew Stanton is as good as Campbell. The Vikings think Sage Rosenfels is as good as Campbell. The Bucs think that Luke McCown is as good as Campbell. The Broncos think Chris Simms is as good as Campbell (sorry, that was a cheap shot). The Raiders think...well, I don't know what the Raiders think.

But, if you are correct on Campbell's true value BHA, every one of these teams is most likely wrong, to the point where they could improve their team ten fold by trading a second round pick for Campbell. Hell, the Jets traded a third round pick for the departed soul of Brett Favre once they decided that Chad Pennington was "just average" to steal a phrase from you.

So what's the explanation here? That you are actually overvaluing Campbell? Well, the stats say you are very much undervaluing him, so that doesn't make sense. No, the point is this: NFL GMs behave a certain way. That means, they don't trade high draft picks for players they don't believe make their team a lot better. Now, Campbell would obviously make a lot of teams a lot better. The Bears would have been far better off trading us a second rounder for Campbell and signing him to a Garrard-type deal then they would be with Jay Cutler, given that they get to hold on to two firsts. But you have to understand why that didn't happen: the Bears view that as an inferior plan to just keeping the status quo of weak QB play.

In this case, the splash of outbidding the Skins for Cutler was just as valuable as the trade itself. Because if you look at the deal in a vaccuum, the Bears got totally ripped off. But once you consider the obscene price on Cutler, it's easy to be an excited Bear fan this morning. They beat Snyder at his game.

I'll just point out that (to reinforce my point), that NFL teams in just the past six years or so, have committed the following errors at the QB position:

- Traded a third round pick for Mark Brunell
- Traded a second round pick for AJ Feeley
- Decided that their team's QB situtation would be more stable once Daunte Culpepper was gone
- Traded a second round pick to get Culpepper instead of signing Drew Brees for free
- Signed Drew Bledsoe
- Drafted JP Losman
- Drafted JaMarcus Russell
- Drafted Alex Smith
- Drafted Vince Young
- Cut Byron Leftwich after going through an entire offseason with him as the starting QB.
- Given the largest contract in NFL history to Michael Vick
- Traded Matt Schaub becuase they didn't feel like they needed any competition for Vick
- Gave Marc Bulger a hefty contract extension
- Two, and very nearly three, different teams have dumped Kurt Warner.
- One team has signed Brian Griese, twice.
- Traded two first round picks, a third round pick, and Kyle Orton, for Jay Cutler.

And then, just the Eric Mangini edition:

- Kicked Chad Pennington to the curb in favor of Kellen Clemens
- Decided that Kellen Clemens wasn't good enough to play instead over a 38 year old Brett Favre, who needed to be traded for
- Decided that 24 year old Brady Quinn is too unproven to get all the reps as a starter, and tried to trade him for Jay Cutler.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

BHA, if you'll remember like two months ago, when you were offering Campbell for Chris Simms and stuff, I pointed out that no team is going to give a second round pick for a player they don't think you value. The only thing we learned yesterday is, that I was right.

Understandably, you value Campbell as equivalent to a second round pick for some team that doesn't have a quarterback. Evidence disagrees with you on that, but let's assume you are right, and Campbell truly is a mediocre player who is going to peak within the next year or so and never break into the top ten QBs. The assumption you are making is that: Every team that doesn't have a quarterback would be willing to trade a valuable 2nd round pick for the last year of Campbell's rookie contract.

But here's the thing: There isn't a team in the NFL that doesn't believe there's an NFL quality QB somewhere on the roster. The Jets think Brett Ratliff is as good as Campbell. The Lions think that Drew Stanton is as good as Campbell. The Vikings think Sage Rosenfels is as good as Campbell. The Bucs think that Luke McCown is as good as Campbell. The Broncos think Chris Simms is as good as Campbell (sorry, that was a cheap shot). The Raiders think...well, I don't know what the Raiders think.

But, if you are correct on Campbell's true value BHA, every one of these teams is most likely wrong, to the point where they could improve their team ten fold by trading a second round pick for Campbell. Hell, the Jets traded a third round pick for the departed soul of Brett Favre once they decided that Chad Pennington was "just average" to steal a phrase from you.

So what's the explanation here? That you are actually overvaluing Campbell? Well, the stats say you are very much undervaluing him, so that doesn't make sense. No, the point is this: NFL GMs behave a certain way. That means, they don't trade high draft picks for players they don't believe make their team a lot better. Now, Campbell would obviously make a lot of teams a lot better. The Bears would have been far better off trading us a second rounder for Campbell and signing him to a Garrard-type deal then they would be with Jay Cutler, given that they get to hold on to two firsts. But you have to understand why that didn't happen: the Bears view that as an inferior plan to just keeping the status quo of weak QB play.

In this case, the splash of outbidding the Skins for Cutler was just as valuable as the trade itself. Because if you look at the deal in a vaccuum, the Bears got totally ripped off. But once you consider the obscene price on Cutler, it's easy to be an excited Bear fan this morning. They beat Snyder at his game.

I'll just point out that (to reinforce my point), that NFL teams in just the past six years or so, have committed the following errors at the QB position:

- Traded a third round pick for Mark Brunell
- Traded a second round pick for AJ Feeley
- Decided that their team's QB situtation would be more stable once Daunte Culpepper was gone
- Traded a second round pick to get Culpepper instead of signing Drew Brees for free
- Signed Drew Bledsoe
- Drafted JP Losman
- Drafted JaMarcus Russell
- Drafted Alex Smith
- Drafted Vince Young
- Cut Byron Leftwich after going through an entire offseason with him as the starting QB.
- Given the largest contract in NFL history to Michael Vick
- Traded Matt Schaub becuase they didn't feel like they needed any competition for Vick
- Gave Marc Bulger a hefty contract extension
- Two, and very nearly three, different teams have dumped Kurt Warner.
- One team has signed Brian Griese, twice.
- Traded two first round picks, a third round pick, and Kyle Orton, for Jay Cutler.

And then, just the Eric Mangini edition:

- Kicked Chad Pennington to the curb in favor of Kellen Clemens
- Decided that Kellen Clemens wasn't good enough to play instead over a 38 year old Brett Favre, who needed to be traded for
- Decided that 24 year old Brady Quinn is too unproven to get all the reps as a starter, and tried to trade him for Jay Cutler.

Wow.