Moral based question:

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Trample: First of all, take a quick moment and get the sand out of your vagina. Now that we've taken care of that, please read my post, especially this part: I doubt I'll put the formulas in just to avoid any chance of getting in trouble. But what are the thoughts of the folks here about it?.

These are the types of decisions that truly show what ethics are, there's an argument to each side. I think if we took this example out of the realm of education and into the realm of business, folks would be telling me to use the tools to my advantage. I'm going to just take the test normally (jotting down a million formulas the second the test starts), but personally wouldn't consider this action cheating. If he said no using memory/applications/editors/etc then it's absolutely cheating.

He He He.

I'm so very pleased that I could upset you so much. Why don't you stop being a vagina and stop beating around the bush.

Why come on here and ask silly rhetorical questions? Well I could eh. . . . but I doubt eh . . . . Do you think eh . . . .

I doubt I'll do it because I don't want to get caught. That speaks volumes. It's not about right or wrong, you just don't want to take the risk.

The answer is in black and white. It isn't a formula or some pie in the sky college debate. Cheating is what ever the professor and the college says it is. That's all there is to it.

Since when has there been ethics in Business? There is only one rule in the business world and that's to make money. That's why it's called business.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

The answer is in black and white. It isn't a formula or some pie in the sky college debate. Cheating is what ever the professor and the college says it is. That's all there is to it.

Since when has there been ethics in Business? There is only one rule in the business world and that's to make money. That's why it's called business.

Paragraph 1: Ends don't justify means - Regardless of whether or not you could gain an advantage by breaking the rules, to do so is wrong. (I may be reading this wrong as Trample may be merely affirming that "cheating" is a definable term without attaching any ethical implications to the definition).

Paragraph 2: Ends justify means. - Regardless of the rules, the goal is the only thing that matters and anything done in pursuit of that goal is right.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Paragraph 1: Ends don't justify means - Regardless of whether or not you could gain an advantage by breaking the rules, to do so is wrong. (I may be reading this wrong as Trample may be merely affirming that "cheating" is a definable term without attaching any ethical implications to the definition).

Paragraph 2: Ends justify means. - Regardless of the rules, the goal is the only thing that matters and anything done in pursuit of that goal is right.

What I mean is that the professor and the college set the rules and or guidelines. To go outside of them is cheating. If those rules are unclear then they, not a blog, should be consulted. To come on here and ask seems like self-justification.

I was BSing on the last paragraph. I deal with people who try to cheat my business every day. To put ethics and business in the same phrase is just funny to me, especially these days. There are a lot of ethical business people. I just don't work with many of them.

It's my nature to think of the worst first. I'm sure Dasael is an all right dude.

[Daseal]

Perhaps not sanctioned, but if something is not known as illegal, is it? That's the real meat of the argument. I'm trying to figure out what would make something 'cheating.' It may not be looked upon favorably, but it also hasn't been addressed at all. I think it's somewhat harsh to punish someone who didn't know and has no way of knowing if something is sanctioned or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not going to put the formulas in, simply because even if there were a 100% chance I was caught and a 5% chance that it meant honor committee I wouldn't take the chance. I'm not going to sacrifice my diploma for a few points. It's not worth it. This just struck me as a good 'real world' type of example.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Perhaps not sanctioned, but if something is not known as illegal, is it? That's the real meat of the argument. I'm trying to figure out what would make something 'cheating.' It may not be looked upon favorably, but it also hasn't been addressed at all. I think it's somewhat harsh to punish someone who didn't know and has no way of knowing if something is sanctioned or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not going to put the formulas in, simply because even if there were a 100% chance I was caught and a 5% chance that it meant honor committee I wouldn't take the chance. I'm not going to sacrifice my diploma for a few points. It's not worth it. This just struck me as a good 'real world' type of example.

In the "real world", if it's against the rules and you break the rules to gain an advantage, it's cheating. Pretty plain and simple. If you don't know or suspect it's against the rules, and you actively seek to be ignorant of the rules then it is still cheating if it's against the rules. By definition, it's not cheating if it's not against the rules. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. What's the ethical thing to do? Seek clarification and obey the rules to ensure a fair test for all.

The real question on ethics is this: You ask your teacher and he/she says it's okay, but only for those students who seek prior approval. Later, your friend says to you "Boy, I sure wish I could program formulas into my calculator". Do you say nothing or tell them it's okay (note, he did not ask a question so silence is not a lie). Suppose it's not a friend but someone you don't like. Further, suppose the test is graded on a curve rather than a straight scale.

[hooskins]

See this completely depends on the class and what is specified by the professor. In high school during our AP Stat test we were encouraged to put calc programs to help us speed up the calculations, infact our teacher frantically uploaded the program on several peoples calculators before the exam, because they didn't clear the calculator for the AP exam.

In other classes, like my calc ones it was expected you cleared your calculator and if you didn't have work to prove you knew what was up, you would get in trouble. But honestly if you can pick your calculator and it says nothing in the syllabus then honor committee shouldn't be able to do jack shit.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by hooskins

See this completely depends on the class and what is specified by the professor. In high school during our AP Stat test we were encouraged to put calc programs to help us speed up the calculations, infact our teacher frantically uploaded the program on several peoples calculators before the exam, because they didn't clear the calculator for the AP exam.

In other classes, like my calc ones it was expected you cleared your calculator and if you didn't have work to prove you knew what was up, you would get in trouble. But honestly if you can pick your calculator and it says nothing in the syllabus then honor committee shouldn't be able to do jack shit.

we had to show the teacher that we had cleared ours before any test, but we archived the programs which made them not get deleted when you cleared everything else

we also had fake cleared screen programs, a program that made nothing show under the added programs, etc

that was definitely cheating

[MTK]

I'd say it's cheating and you probably already know it.

[djnemo65]

Did you ask the professor?

[dmek25]

dont cheat. if your not sure, ask.

[Schneed10]

Daseal, you have to check your school's honor policy. At Richmond, we had a strict one and anyone found guilty of cheating was automatically expelled for good, with readmittance 100% not an option. If your school is like mine, I wouldn't eff around.

The kids on the honor council sit in classes with you, you never know if one of them is sitting near you.

As to whether this is cheating, it's a gray area. But depending on the honor policy it may not be worth it.

[gibbsisgod]

Who is to say that your prof makes everybody delete any saved info before the test starts. If you were not prepared this would really suck.

[mredskins]

Cheating never pays because in the end if you get caught or not you lose. I hated hated English class when growing up espically spelling. I think I cheated on most spelling test and now today I suffer becasue I am the worst speller I know.

Luckly I took a likening to math. I would say if you cheat you are only screwing yourself. It is true in the "real world" Excel or my HP 10BII ( I know it is crappy but gets the job done plus I use Ecel 99% of the time) does the work of actual claculating the formulas but with out knowing the methodology behind those formauls Excel and my HP would be useless.

Basically don't cheat yourself and just learn the crap.

[FRPLG]

I would just ask the professor. If he ahsn't said you can't and said you can use your calculator then it isn't really cheating to me. But I'd still make sure based on the "If it's too good to be true" philosophy.

[CRedskinsRule]

Also, if you have it, check the rules they handed out at the beginning of the semester. When I went, everything was laid out fairly clearly in those. Like most have said, if you are not sure ask first and that way you don't have to worry.