Obama Care

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

That's just it, it's not about "me paying for my clitorectamy" dipshit. Abject stupidity is always good for getting a rise out of me. It's about realizing that there are those that for a multitude of socio-economic reasons do not have access to healthcare. That's a problem, period. With the GDP we have, there is no excuse for that. And as far as your foreign policy ideas, look over your own post history. The attitude of "me first" is at the root of most of what's wrong with this country.

There's the disagreement. Many don't want to pay for health care for others. Your side sees health care as a right. The other side says "get a job" and pay for it yourself. Sounds harsh to me but the philosophy that everyone needs to be responsible for themselves and their family first sounds about right to me. Then we can worry about helping others. It seems to me we are slowly changing from that philosophy to one where it is far too easy for everyone to rely on the gov't and everyone else rather than themselves. There has to be a balance.

And please don't throw out "a single digit tax increase" like it is a few pennies. 9% is still single digits and would cripple the finances of a lot of people in this country. Not mention businesses that would then pass it on to customers.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

There's the disagreement. Many don't want to pay for health care for others. Your side sees health care as a right. The other side says "get a job" and pay for it yourself. Sounds harsh to me but the philosophy that everyone needs to be responsible for themselves and their family first sounds about right to me. Then we can worry about helping others. It seems to me we are slowly changing from that philosophy to one where it is far too easy for everyone to rely on the gov't and everyone else rather than themselves. There has to be a balance.

And please don't throw out "a single digit tax increase" like it is a few pennies. 9% is still single digits and would cripple the finances of a lot of people in this country. Not mention businesses that would then pass it on to customers.

Show me a credible source that says 9%. But i do get your point, it's a difference in philosophy. But say healtcare was fully govt. provided. Using these figures, there is an annual cost of $65 billion to the 138 million U.S. taxpayers. That's a per payer cost (not "per citizen") of $471 per year. I don't know too many people that are going to go bankrupt over that figure. I know it's a simplistic approach, but you see my point.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Show me a credible source that says 9%. But i do get your point, it's a difference in philosophy. But say healtcare was fully govt. provided. Using these figures, there is an annual cost of $65 billion to the 138 million U.S. taxpayers. That's a per payer cost (not "per citizen") of $471 per year. I don't know too many people that are going to go bankrupt over that figure. I know it's a simplistic approach, but you see my point.

The 9% was just a single-digit number. Nothing factual or anything. My point with the taxes really is that even a "small" tax increase is :

a) not small to everyone
b) one step towards the next "small" tax increases for whatever the flavor of the day idea is.

Those "small" tax increases are the reason we pay so much money for the things that you yourself stated were ridiculous. At some point taxing for more programs has to stop. At least we need to get right the programs we already tax for. maybe if we did that thenw e wouldn't have to raise taxes at all. I'd love to have a great health care system that worked great and efficient for all. Unfortunately I'd have to ride a unicorn to get to that magical fairy land where they have such utopian things. I prefer to fix the capitalistic disaster we currently have. With real changes, not window dressing that could make things worse according to just about anyone who knows anything about health care.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

The 9% was just a single-digit number. Nothing factual or anything. My point with the taxes really is that even a "small" tax increase is :

a) not small to everyone
b) one step towards the next "small" tax increases for whatever the flavor of the day idea is.

Those "small" tax increases are the reason we pay so much money for the things that you yourself stated were ridiculous. At some point taxing for more programs has to stop. At least we need to get right the programs we already tax for. maybe if we did that thenw e wouldn't have to raise taxes at all. I'd love to have a great health care system that worked great and efficient for all. Unfortunately I'd have to ride a unicorn to get to that magical fairy land where they have such utopian things. I prefer to fix the capitalistic disaster we currently have. With real changes, not window dressing that could make things worse according to just about anyone who knows anything about health care.

Damn, and i was thinking of enlisting the leprechauns to help us out. Seriously though, of course there are going to be abuses/corruption. That's life, just as there are no doubt inefficiencies in the private sector which contribute to the current ridiculous cost of health care. But to be as advanced as we are, and not to have something in place is inexcusable. Our priorities are grossly skewed. We spend incredible amounts of money on far less important things, as I've previously pointed out. There are always going to be excuses to not do something of this nature, but at some point we as a country to realize the fundamental nature of healthcare and ensure every person in the country has access to it. I don't see that as imaginary, fairy tale stuff, i just see it as a shift in policy.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Damn, and i was thinking of enlisting the leprechauns to help us out. Seriously though, of course there are going to be abuses/corruption. That's life, just as there are no doubt inefficiencies in the private sector which contribute to the current ridiculous cost of health care. But to be as advanced as we are, and not to have something in place is inexcusable. Our priorities are grossly skewed. We spend incredible amounts of money on far less important things, as I've previously pointed out. There are always going to be excuses to not do something of this nature, but at some point we as a country to realize the fundamental nature of healthcare and ensure every person in the country has access to it. I don't see that as imaginary, fairy tale stuff, i just see it as a shift in policy.

I don't totally agree. Yeah we spend a lot of money dumb ass things...no our priorities aren't skewed as a whole. Our ability to elect people who govern according to priorities is non-existent. And at the end of the day everyone's priorities are different anyways. You see health-care as a fundamental right. A lot of people don't. As Schneed said the first thing that needs definition is what "health-care" means. Right now everyone quibbles about dozens of different facets of the issue. If we could actually define what quality health-care entails the discussion might be infinitely easier.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I don't totally agree. Yeah we spend a lot of money dumb ass things...no our priorities aren't skewed as a whole. Our ability to elect people who govern according to priorities is non-existent. And at the end of the day everyone's priorities are different anyways. You see health-care as a fundamental right. A lot of people don't. As Schneed said the first thing that needs definition is what "health-care" means. Right now everyone quibbles about dozens of different facets of the issue. If we could actually define what quality health-care entails the discussion might be infinitely easier.

Ding Ding Ding. The definition of "Quality Health Care" differs for everyone. I think it was you who earlier said that, when it comes to healthcare, everybody wants a Porsche but only wants to be for a Hyundai. I think that pretty much defines the problem.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Ding Ding Ding. The definition of "Quality Health Care" differs for everyone. I think it was you who earlier said that, when it comes to healthcare, everybody wants a Porsche but only wants to be for a Hyundai. I think that pretty much defines the problem.

People seem to forget "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."