What has Obama done well?

[wolfeskins]

Originally Posted by Angry

. For once we have a President that has the nuts to stand up and do what he believes is right. All we want to do is bash him.

If you have to give up starbucks and 8 cyllinder engines so that those less fortunate can have health care, then so be it. Heaven fobid that a cup of coffee and a sports car are more important than anothers life.

thats bullcrap. bush thought going into iraq was the right thing to do. we were attacked on american soil, i would say bush had a huge set of balls for actually fighting back instead of just standing pat and saying to the american people "we prolly deserved that, lets appoligize for the way we've been living and maybe the terrorists will leave us alone". thats what obama and all the lefties would want to do. bush fought back and to this day he still gets bashed for it.


and thanks for telling me how to spend my money. you want me to pay for another's health care to "save a life" but your prolly for abortion.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

thats bullcrap. bush thought going into iraq was the right thing to do. we were attacked on american soil, i would say bush had a huge set of balls for actually fighting back instead of just standing pat and saying to the american people "we prolly deserved that, lets appoligize for the way we've been living and maybe the terrorists will leave us alone". thats what obama and all the lefties would want to do. bush fought back and to this day he still gets bashed for it.


and thanks for telling me how to spend my money. you want me to pay for another's health care to "save a life" but your prolly for abortion.

i know personally i would have alot more respect for the past administration if they would have went after the actual perpetrators of the attack. how they bamboozled the American public about invading Iraq is beyond me

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by wolfeskins

thats bullcrap. bush thought going into iraq was the right thing to do. we were attacked on american soil, i would say bush had a huge set of balls for actually fighting back instead of just standing pat and saying to the american people "we prolly deserved that, lets appoligize for the way we've been living and maybe the terrorists will leave us alone". thats what obama and all the lefties would want to do. bush fought back and to this day he still gets bashed for it.


and thanks for telling me how to spend my money. you want me to pay for another's health care to "save a life" but your prolly for abortion.

1. Iraq had nothing to do with the attack on American soil. You cannot fight a war against terrorists on a typical battlefield. The terrorists that attacked the U.S. were sent by a man hiding in Afghanistan. But you are right, Bush had the balls to persuade less intelligent people like you that going into Iraq was what we needed to do. Now before you start questioning my patriotism, realize that I was there. I could argue on and on about the war, but I would rather point out that you’re a hypocrite.

2. You said thanks for telling you how to spend your money. Isn't that what America does every day by telling countries that they cannot invest in their nuclear programs? You are telling me that I cannot tell you not to drive a V-8 because it is bad for the environment, but you can tell Iran not to make missiles because they are bad for the environment. That's awesome! Who told America that we couldn't make our nuclear missiles and build our nuclear sub marines and power plants? We tell them because we understand the devastation that may come of them just like I understand the devastation by you driving your V-8. So come on Wolfeskis, please don’t drive a V-8 or I will sanction you and plan air strikes against your garage.

3. You say that I want money for healthcare and I am for abortion. Let’s get one thing straight. I am for healthcare, but nobody is for abortion! There are just people out there that realize that there are circumstances that exist in which abortion is the lesser of 2 evils. If a woman is raped and she does not want to keep a child...I understand. If the mother has 50% chance of survival and the child has zero...I understand. You guys have to stop thinking in terms of it's this way or that way, and realize the grey areas out there.

4. Only you can prevent narrow mindedness. Do you really think that by adopting universal healthcare that we would actually allow a person into their 90's to just die? We as a society would not allow this. You guys bitch about how much money Obama is spending and how much is coming out of your pocket and you truly believe that the government is just going to take your money let grandma die? That's good old Republican cynicism at its best. Nothing like some good ole hell and damnation preaching! Grandma is going to be OK, so are your son, your father and anyone else. The good news is that there are also going to be people that never had healthcare before that are going to be OK as well.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Angry

1. Iraq had nothing to do with the attack on American soil. You cannot fight a war against terrorists on a typical battlefield. The terrorists that attacked the U.S. were sent by a man hiding in Afghanistan. But you are right, Bush had the balls to persuade less intelligent people like you that going into Iraq was what we needed to do. Now before you start questioning my patriotism, realize that I was there. I could argue on and on about the war, but I would rather point out that you’re a hypocrite.

2. You said thanks for telling you how to spend your money. Isn't that what America does every day by telling countries that they cannot invest in their nuclear programs? You are telling me that I cannot tell you not to drive a V-8 because it is bad for the environment, but you can tell Iran not to make missiles because they are bad for the environment. That's awesome! Who told America that we couldn't make our nuclear missiles and build our nuclear sub marines and power plants? We tell them because we understand the devastation that may come of them just like I understand the devastation by you driving your V-8. So come on Wolfeskis, please don’t drive a V-8 or I will sanction you and plan air strikes against your garage.

3. You say that I want money for healthcare and I am for abortion. Let’s get one thing straight. I am for healthcare, but nobody is for abortion! There are just people out there that realize that there are circumstances that exist in which abortion is the lesser of 2 evils. If a woman is raped and she does not want to keep a child...I understand. If the mother has 50% chance of survival and the child has zero...I understand. You guys have to stop thinking in terms of it's this way or that way, and realize the grey areas out there.

4. Only you can prevent narrow mindedness. Do you really think that by adopting universal healthcare that we would actually allow a person into their 90's to just die? We as a society would not allow this. You guys bitch about how much money Obama is spending and how much is coming out of your pocket and you truly believe that the government is just going to take your money let grandma die? That's good old Republican cynicism at its best. Nothing like some good ole hell and damnation preaching! Grandma is going to be OK, so are your son, your father and anyone else. The good news is that there are also going to be people that never had healthcare before that are going to be OK as well.

There are over 1,200,000 abortions a year in the US and about 2% of them are done to save the life of the mother or rap. Thats an old argument and most people would agree that those are a different case. I'm not against abortion because I feel it a nessary evil but I'm against tax payer funded abortions.This comes from a person who had a friend die after giving birth.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by firstdown

There are over 1,200,000 abortions a year in the US and about 2% of them are done to save the life of the mother or rap. Thats an old argument and most people would agree that those are a different case. I'm not against abortion because I feel it a nessary evil but I'm against tax payer funded abortions.This comes from a person who had a friend die after giving birth.

The rap game is killing kids?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

The rap game is killing kids?

video games too

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

video games too

Damn!

[ArtMonkDrillz]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

The rap game is killing kids?

Only when kids use it as a gateway into the "thug" life and they take the messages like "get rich or die tryin'" to heart.

[Trample the Elderly]

2. You said thanks for telling you how to spend your money. Isn't that what America does every day by telling countries that they cannot invest in their nuclear programs? You are telling me that I cannot tell you not to drive a V-8 because it is bad for the environment, but you can tell Iran not to make missiles because they are bad for the environment. That's awesome! Who told America that we couldn't make our nuclear missiles and build our nuclear sub marines and power plants? We tell them because we understand the devastation that may come of them just like I understand the devastation by you driving your V-8. So come on Wolfeskis, please don’t drive a V-8 or I will sanction you and plan air strikes against your garage.

This is what I've been saying for awhile. The Federal Government should leave people alone, at home and abroad.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

This is what I've been saying for awhile. The Federal Government should leave people alone, at home and abroad.

Is it possible to have a functional government that doesn't act in it's own best interests?

It's a pretty deep question when you think about it. We could have a totally isolationist foreign policy, no UN, no NATO, etc, but when situations arise where it's COMPLETELY obvious that's the correct move is to meddle in the business of others, do you stay true to isolationist ideals?

If not, where is the line drawn?

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Is it possible to have a functional government that doesn't act in it's own best interests?

It's a pretty deep question when you think about it. We could have a totally isolationist foreign policy, no UN, no NATO, etc, but when situations arise where it's COMPLETELY obvious that's the correct move is to meddle in the business of others, do you stay true to isolationist ideals?

If not, where is the line drawn?

The government needs to operate in the interest of the people it represents. It isn't an entity in itself.

Name me some situations where it was obvious to meddle in the affairs of others. Who said isolationist? That's your flawed interpretation of my poistion.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Angry

1. Iraq had nothing to do with the attack on American soil. You cannot fight a war against terrorists on a typical battlefield. The terrorists that attacked the U.S. were sent by a man hiding in Afghanistan. But you are right, Bush had the balls to persuade less intelligent people like you that going into Iraq was what we needed to do. Now before you start questioning my patriotism, realize that I was there. I could argue on and on about the war, but I would rather point out that you’re a hypocrite.

A lot more to the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 than links to 9/11.

Iraq Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George Tenet (Clinton hold-over) provided the intel to Bush, Colin Powell, Sens. Tom Daschle (sponsor), Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Diane Feinstein, John Kerry, Joe Liberman, Harry Reid, and Jay Rockefeller (Intel Committee) must all be included in the "less intelligent" category too. And Obama must be at least partially included too for voting to approve over $ 300B in funding for the war.

2. You said thanks for telling you how to spend your money. Isn't that what America does every day by telling countries that they cannot invest in their nuclear programs?

No. You may want to read up on the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. You say that I want money for healthcare and I am for abortion. Let’s get one thing straight. I am for healthcare, but nobody is for abortion! There are just people out there that realize that there are circumstances that exist in which abortion is the lesser of 2 evils. If a woman is raped and she does not want to keep a child...I understand. If the mother has 50% chance of survival and the child has zero...I understand. You guys have to stop thinking in terms of it's this way or that way, and realize the grey areas out there.

As firstdown mentioned, the VAST majority of abortions are completely voluntary. For those that view abortion as murder, they don't want to be forced to participate or fund abortions through their tax dollars.

4. Only you can prevent narrow mindedness. Do you really think that by adopting universal healthcare that we would actually allow a person into their 90's to just die? We as a society would not allow this. You guys bitch about how much money Obama is spending and how much is coming out of your pocket and you truly believe that the government is just going to take your money let grandma die? That's good old Republican cynicism at its best. Nothing like some good ole hell and damnation preaching! Grandma is going to be OK, so are your son, your father and anyone else. The good news is that there are also going to be people that never had healthcare before that are going to be OK as well.

When providing treatment is done via a cost-benefit analysis in terms of "life years", then there will be a reduction in services to the elderly and treatments may not be provided that would either enhance life (hip-replacements, etc.) or prolong life (transplants, etc.). I have first hand experience in watching services to my father be reduced when he was forced to transfer from a private insurance plan to Medicare. So don't be naive, reduction in services to the elderly will happen and happens everyday in the UK & Canada.

Good article from the WSJ:

ObamaCare Will Lead to Rationed Care for Elderly - WSJ.com

I'm sure you wouldn't want this in the U.S.
Elderly left at risk by NHS bidding wars to find cheapest care with reverse auctions - Times Online

Also, here is some information on the Complete Lives System and by Emmanuel's own words this system "disrciminates against older people". The "death panel" thing is Glen Beck-esque garbage, but the fact is under a Gov't option services to the elderly will be reduced.

Ezekiel J. Emanuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The framework for the cost-benefit decision-making has already been approved in Obama's stimulus bill:

From the link:
Elderly Hardest Hit
Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.
Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464).
The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis.
In 2006, a U.K. health board decreed that elderly patients with macular degeneration had to wait until they went blind in one eye before they could get a costly new drug to save the other eye. It took almost three years of public protests before the board reversed its decision.
Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan: Betsy McCaughey - Bloomberg.com