What has Obama done well?

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

As far as UCMJ or punishment for a bow, I've never heard that. However the State Department Office of Protocol and Miss Manners know that the President and any U.S. citizen NEVER bow before a monarch or king.

You can say what you want, but in the Middle East the gesture is seen as making the U.S. sub-servient.

My warrant officer would've had my ass if I had bowed in the way the Japanese did.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

My warrant officer would've had my ass if I had bowed in the way the Japanese did.

Agreed. It may not be in the UCMJ, but my superiors would've made it very clear that bowing that way is unacceptable.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Agreed. It may not be in the UCMJ, but my superiors would've made it very clear that bowing that way is unacceptable.

You're telling me that if you were stationed in Japan and a local person bowed you wouldn't reciprocate? Not bowing is not only acceptable but preferred by superiors? How vile, especially coming from people who value and fight for their traditions and way of life. I suppose one can not expect certain men to be wise, fortunately U.S. commanders and generals have traditionally showed respect to Japanese customs even under disgraceful circumstance.

Rear Admiral James Kelly, the top U.S. naval commander in Japan, bowed and apologized to the mayor of Yokosuka City, where the U.S. navy is headquartered. U.S. ambassador Thomas Schieffer expressed condolences and regret.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

You're telling me that if you were stationed in Japan and a local person bowed you wouldn't reciprocate? Not bowing is not only acceptable but preferred by superiors? How vile, especially coming from people who value and fight for their traditions and way of life. I suppose one can not expect certain men to be wise, fortunately U.S. commanders and generals have traditionally showed respect to Japanese customs even under disgraceful circumstance.

I was stationed in Japan for 3 years. Huge difference in returning a bow to another citizen, which I did often, and bowing (especially as POTUS) to a monarch or king. In this instance the US commander was bowing to show remorse and regret, which he should've in this circumstance. Someone under his command disgraced him and the entire U.S. Obama has NOTHING to bow to any foreign leader for (I know we've gone down this road before so rather than the page long responses let me summarize: saden: The U.S. has many things to be ashamed of. SS33: The U.S. is the greatest country on earth. Both posts contain YouTube clips and links to various sites backing up each point)

In meeting with anyone from another government I would shake hands but never bow (and certainly not hold hands and kiss either). In the Far East I would return a bow, but not bow first.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I was stationed in Japan for 3 years. Huge difference in returning a bow to another citizen, which I did often, and bowing (especially as POTUS) to a monarch or king. In this instance the US commander was bowing to show remorse and regret, which he should've in this circumstance. Someone under his command disgraced him and the entire U.S. Obama has NOTHING to bow to any foreign leader for (I know we've gone down this road before so rather than the page long responses let me summarize: saden: The U.S. has many things to be ashamed of. SS33: The U.S. is the greatest country on earth. Both posts contain YouTube clips and links to various sites backing up each point)

In meeting with anyone from another government I would shake hands but never bow (and certainly not hold hands and kiss either). In the Far East I would return a bow, but not bow first.

My post was in response to TTL post that indicated that his superior and himself (admittedly surmised from his previous posts and his general dickishness) viewed bowing as unacceptable proposition under any circumstance which you voiced as agreeable. Clearly, by your response, you don't seem to share this view and so I am left confused as to what you find agreeable.

Bowing in apology is acceptable but bowing in pleasantries is not? Would you think it acceptable if Obama (the commander in chief) bowed to the same mayor, prime minister or emperor of Japan under similar circumstance of remorse?

When in foreign lands wise men show the utmost deference to other cultures and their customs even if one perceives such endeavor to be embracing and shameful for to do otherwise is ultimately acting against ones own self-interest. Do not limit yourself to simply returning a bow my friend. Perhaps knowing what bowing is and its significance in different cultures might be helpful assessing its permissibility and irrelevance of order of bowing which you find virtuous.

p.s. What does the Office of Protocol say about the Commander in Chief and citizens not bowing to heads of states (monarch or otherwise), where can I find the protocol text?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

My post was in response to TTL post that indicated that his superior and himself (admittedly surmised from his previous posts and his general dickishness) viewed bowing as unacceptable proposition under any circumstance which you voiced as agreeable. Clearly, by your response, you don't seem to share this view and so I am left confused as to what you find agreeable.

I was interpreting TTE's response as in reference to the POTUS's deep bow (much like a Japanese bow), maybe I missed or misinterpreted something.

Bowing in apology is acceptable but bowing in pleasantries is not? Would you think it acceptable if Obama (the commander in chief) bowed to the same mayor, prime minister or emperor of Japan under similar circumstance of remorse?

The difference is in the situation. Bowing as a civilian in a non-offical capacity to another civilian in a foreign land is completely acceptable. But Obama isn't a civilian for at least the next 3 1/2 years, he's the POTUS and Commander in Chief. As Commander in Chief, no, he shouldn't bow in remorse IMO, nor should the Secretary of State, a lower level official like the regional or base commander, fine.

When in foreign lands wise men show the utmost deference to other cultures and their customs even if one perceives such endeavor to be embracing and shameful for to do otherwise is ultimately acting against ones own self-interest. Do not limit yourself to simply returning a bow my friend. Perhaps knowing what bowing is and its significance in different cultures might be helpful assessing its permissibility and irrelevance of order of bowing which you find virtuous.

Thanks for the info, but again what a civilian does in a social setting isn't comparable to bowing in deference or submissiveness to any foreign gov't official or monarch/king. If that makes me unwise to only bow before the Pope and the Eucharist, then I guess I am unwise.

p.s. What does the Office of Protocol say about the Commander in Chief and citizens not bowing to heads of states (monarch or otherwise), where can I find the protocol text?

Working on it.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I was interpreting TTE's response as in reference to the POTUS's deep bow (much like a Japanese bow), maybe I missed or misinterpreted something.

The difference is in the situation. Bowing as a civilian in a non-offical capacity to another civilian in a foreign land is completely acceptable. But Obama isn't a civilian for at least the next 3 1/2 years, he's the POTUS and Commander in Chief. As Commander in Chief, no, he shouldn't bow in remorse IMO, nor should the Secretary of State, a lower level official like the regional or base commander, fine.

Thanks for the info, but again what a civilian does in a social setting isn't comparable to bowing in deference or submissiveness to any foreign gov't official or monarch/king. If that makes me unwise to only bow before the Pope and the Eucharist, then I guess I am unwise.

Working on it.

And so I am left to ask why you feel this way. Why do you find it palatable in one instance and not at all in another? Is it merely due to the importance of the individual in question and what they represent? If this is the case you espouse the very thing you detest in the symbolism of bowing (servility and the inequality of men).

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by saden1

My post was in response to TTL post that indicated that his superior and himself (admittedly surmised from his previous posts and his general dickishness) viewed bowing as unacceptable proposition under any circumstance which you voiced as agreeable. Clearly, by your response, you don't seem to share this view and so I am left confused as to what you find agreeable.

Bowing in apology is acceptable but bowing in pleasantries is not? Would you think it acceptable if Obama (the commander in chief) bowed to the same mayor, prime minister or emperor of Japan under similar circumstance of remorse?

When in foreign lands wise men show the utmost deference to other cultures and their customs even if one perceives such endeavor to be embracing and shameful for to do otherwise is ultimately acting against ones own self-interest. Do not limit yourself to simply returning a bow my friend. Perhaps knowing what bowing is and its significance in different cultures might be helpful assessing its permissibility and irrelevance of order of bowing which you find virtuous.

p.s. What does the Office of Protocol say about the Commander in Chief and citizens not bowing to heads of states (monarch or otherwise), where can I find the protocol text?

We were representatives of the U.S. We weren't two schmucks on a fishing trip. I'm working on finding you that info. Many have alluded to the UCMJ which I did not. That is used to presecute more than to outline behavior from what I can remember. Had I bowed I would've probably been brought up on conduct unbecoming of an NCO. It wouldn't have been a huge offense. I'm looking through the Armed Forces Code of Conduct.

You are coming from a different frame of mind than some of the people who understand what I'm saying. What I am saying is this, there is no such thing as moral / cultural relativism for public officials. These are not expatriates doing as Romans would. This has nothing to do with respecting another's countries traditions.

I'll bet my bottom dollar we don't serve Saudi Princes N.C style BBQ for state functions. We do on the other hand make Muslim women take off their veils for official documents. They cannot have driver's licenses looking like ninjas just because it's part of their culture. I'm unfamiliar with the law, but I'm guessing I'd not be allowed to brew up Christmas Ale in Dubai.

As for that Naval Officer who bowed, well I've no opinion on that. My gut tells me he was probably apologizing for some drunken serviceman, but I don't know? When I was in the big honcho for the Navy blew his brains out because he wore some ribbons that weren't awarded to him. What can I say? Squids are strange.

[Trample the Elderly]

If Obama wants to repair an image, he should do so with people who matter.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

We were representatives of the U.S. We weren't two schmucks on a fishing trip. I'm working on finding you that info. Many have alluded to the UCMJ which I did not. That is used to presecute more than to outline behavior from what I can remember. Had I bowed I would've probably been brought up on conduct unbecoming of an NCO. It wouldn't have been a huge offense. I'm looking through the Armed Forces Code of Conduct.

You are coming from a different frame of mind than some of the people who understand what I'm saying. What I am saying is this, there is no such thing as moral / cultural relativism for public officials. These are not expatriates doing as Romans would. This has nothing to do with respecting another's countries traditions.

I'll bet my bottom dollar we don't serve Saudi Princes N.C style BBQ for state functions. We do on the other hand make Muslim women take off their veils for official documents. They cannot have driver's licenses looking like ninjas just because it's part of their culture. I'm unfamiliar with the law, but I'm guessing I'd not be allowed to brew up Christmas Ale in Dubai.

As for that Naval Officer who bowed, well I've no opinion on that. My gut tells me he was probably apologizing for some drunken serviceman, but I don't know? When I was in the big honcho for the Navy blew his brains out because he wore some ribbons that weren't awarded to him. What can I say? Squids are strange.

Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman is quite a serious offense and if convicted punishable through court martial.

Don't bet your bottom dollar, a BBQ is fine so long as you don't serve them pork and serve halal meat (if they are ostensibly religious). Similarly, I wouldn't expect our public officials to be served bush meat on their foreign visits with the expectations that they would dig in.

With respect to not allowing them to cover their face I agree with it as a matter of public safety and the alternative of wearing a hijab is permissible in all states. Several states actually allow you not to take an ID accompanied with a photo on religious grounds and some will allow you to wear your ninja mask with the expectation that you will show your full face to an officer of the law if requested to do so. Clearly, there is no universal law against the ninja get'up.

I don't know if you can brew your own beer but I do know you can walk into a liquor store in Dubai with alcohol license in hand and buy any sort of beer that catches your fancy. I'm not puzzled by their laws though as I am still unable to freely grow my on cannabis plants.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

p.s. What does the Office of Protocol say about the Commander in Chief and citizens not bowing to heads of states (monarch or otherwise), where can I find the protocol text?

As with most protocol or custom much is unwritten. However I would say the "not bowing to a monarch/king" is pretty well known. Even the Washington Post writers understand it.

In the face of royalty, don't bow to bad manners | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

Encyclopedia of the modern Olympic ... - Google Books#

The Washington Post Writers Group

At the end of the day it was a mistake by Obama, for whatever reason he did it.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by saden1

You're telling me that if you were stationed in Japan and a local person bowed you wouldn't reciprocate? Not bowing is not only acceptable but preferred by superiors? How vile, especially coming from people who value and fight for their traditions and way of life. I suppose one can not expect certain men to be wise, fortunately U.S. commanders and generals have traditionally showed respect to Japanese customs even under disgraceful circumstance.

Flush your head out new guy. You think this is about freedom? This is a slaughter. If I'm going to get my balls blown off for a word, then my word is puntang.