Preseason Game 1 Quick Hitters: First of all, calm the hell down

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by hail_2_da_skins

I was very disappointed with the Redskins performance in the first preseason game. People say these games are meaningless but that's a bunch of crap. These games mean everything for players that are in position battles (right tackle, wide receiver, defensive line, ...) and making the team. The disappointment is more with the lack of depth of the overall team. The Skins have some good marque players but the drop off in talent is tremendous. The reason for the drop off in talent is because of the organization philosophy of going after free agents and not through the draft. Most of the successful organizations (NE, Indy, Pittsburgh, Giants, ...) have built through the draft. I don't know why the Redskins continue to go against the grain. Not only does the Redskins trade away draft picks like Christmas presents but when they do select players, the picks are questionable. Our top draft picks have been good but the middle to late round picks are bad with one exception (Chris Horton). The good organizations consistently find quality starters in the middle rounds whereas the Skins pick guys like Justin Tryon or Durant Brooks that won't be around long.

The teams you've mentioned have certainly had a fair share of mid to late round picks, but let's see if it's actually true that they drafted well and consistenly find quality starters. Let's take a look at rounds 4-7 from 2006 through 2008

New England Patriots (2008)

4th round: Jonathan Wilhite (CB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Matt Slater (WR) 2nd on depth chart
6th round: Bo Ruud (LB) on the Browns now (spent rookie year on IR, waived in April)

New England Patriots (2007)

4th round: Kareem Brown (DT) On the Jets now (waived in 2007 after 11 games on the inactive roster by Pats)
5th round: Clint Oldenburg (T) On the Broncos now (waived before 2007 season by Pats)
6th round: Justin Rogers (LB) On the Cowboys now (waived before 2007 season by Pats)
6th round: Mike Richardson (DB) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Justise Hairston (RB) On Bills now (Waived in September 2007 by Pats)
6th round: Corey Hilliard (T) On Colts now
7th round: Oscar Lua (LB) not in league right now
7th round: Mike Elgin (G) not in league right now

New England Patriots (2006)

4th round: Garrett Mills (RB) On Vikings now (waived by Pats in fall 2007)
4th round: Stephen Gostkowski (K) He's good
5th round: Ryan O'Callaghan (T) 3rd on the depth chart
6th round: Jeremy Mincey (DE) On Jaguars now (practice squad with Patriots)
6th round: Dan Stevenson (G) not in league right now
6th round: Le Kevin Smith (DT) 2nd on depth chart
7th round: Willie Andrews (CB) not in league right now

So that's 18 draft picks; one starter; three guys who are 2nd on depth chart (12 guys not on the team anymore)

Indianapolis Colts (2008)

4th round: Jacob Tamme (TE) 3rd on depth chart
5th round: Marcus Howard (DE) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Tom Santi (TE) 4th on depth chart
6th round: Steve Justice (C) 2nd on depth chart
6th round: Mike Hart (RB) 3rd on depth chart, recovering from major injury
6th round: Pierre Garcon (WR) someone to watch out for as a #3 WR this year
7th round: Jamey Richard (C) 2nd on depth chart

Indianapolis Colts (2007)

4th round: Brannon Condren (DB) not in league right now (waived halfway through 2007 season by Colts)
4th round: Clint Session (LB) starting LB
5th round: Roy Hall (WR) not in league right now
5th round: Michael Coe (DB) 4th on depth chart
7th round: Keyunta Dawson (DT) 2nd on depth chart at LDE, 42 career tackles

Indianapolis Colts (2006)

5th round: Michael Toudouze (G) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Charlie Johnson (T) 10 game starter in 2007, 16 game starter in 2008
6th round: Antoine Bethea (SS) starter at Free Safety
7th round: TJ Rushing (DB) 3rd on depth chart (starter at punt returner)

16 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (1 guy not on the team anymore)

New York Giants (2008)

4th round: Bryan Kehl (OLB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Jonathan Goff (LB) 2 career tackles, not even sure he's still on the team
6th round: Andre Woodson (QB) Practice Squad, I think
6th round: Robert Henderson (DE) injured reserve

New York Giants (2007)

4th round: Zak DeOssie (LB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Kevin Boss (TE) starter at TE
6th round: Adam Koets (T) 2nd on depth chart
7th round: Michael Johnson (S) starter
7th round: Ahmad Bradshaw (RB) great, great pick

New York Giants (2006)

4th round: Barry Cofield (NT) starter
4th round: Guy Whimper (T) Practice squad, I think
5th round: Charlie Peprah (DB) on Packers now (think he spent 2006 on Giants PS)
7th round: Gerrick McPhearson (DB) not in league right now (2006 Giants PS)

13 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (2 guys, at least, not on the team anymore)

Pittsburgh Steelers (2008)

4th round: Tony Hills (T) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Dennis Dixon (QB) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Mike Humpal (LB) not in league right now
6th round: Ryan Mundy (FS) 2nd on depth chart

Pittsburgh Steelers (2007)

4th round: Daniel Sepulveda (P) Was hurt last year, but he's good
4th round: Ryan McBean (DE) On Broncos now (played one game as a Steeler)
5th round: Cameron Stephenson (G) On Jaguars now (cut before 2007 season by Steelers)
5th round: William Gay (DB) starter
7th round: Dallas Baker (WR) 3rd on depth chart

Pittsburgh Steelers (2006)

4th round: Willie Colon (T) starter
4th round: Orien Harris (DT) On Lions now (did nothing with the Steelers)
5th round: Omar Jacobs (QB) not in league right now (cut before 2006 season by Steelers)
5th round: Charles Davis (TE) on Chargers now
6th round: Marvin Phillip (C) on Bills now
7th round: Cedric Humes (RB) not in league right now

15 picks; 2 starters, 2 backups (8 guys not on the team anymore)

From 2006 through 2008 the Redskins have had 15 draft picks from round 4 through 7; 1 starter and 5 backups (5 guys not on the team anymore)

In conclusion...you're wrong

[hail_2_da_skins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

The teams you've mentioned have certainly had a fair share of mid to late round picks, but let's see if it's actually true that they drafted well and consistenly find quality starters. Let's take a look at rounds 4-7 from 2006 through 2008

New England Patriots (2008)

4th round: Jonathan Wilhite (CB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Matt Slater (WR) 2nd on depth chart
6th round: Bo Ruud (LB) on the Browns now (spent rookie year on IR, waived in April)

New England Patriots (2007)

4th round: Kareem Brown (DT) On the Jets now (waived in 2007 after 11 games on the inactive roster by Pats)
5th round: Clint Oldenburg (T) On the Broncos now (waived before 2007 season by Pats)
6th round: Justin Rogers (LB) On the Cowboys now (waived before 2007 season by Pats)
6th round: Mike Richardson (DB) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Justise Hairston (RB) On Bills now (Waived in September 2007 by Pats)
6th round: Corey Hilliard (T) On Colts now
7th round: Oscar Lua (LB) not in league right now
7th round: Mike Elgin (G) not in league right now

New England Patriots (2006)

4th round: Garrett Mills (RB) On Vikings now (waived by Pats in fall 2007)
4th round: Stephen Gostkowski (K) He's good
5th round: Ryan O'Callaghan (T) 3rd on the depth chart
6th round: Jeremy Mincey (DE) On Jaguars now (practice squad with Patriots)
6th round: Dan Stevenson (G) not in league right now
6th round: Le Kevin Smith (DT) 2nd on depth chart
7th round: Willie Andrews (CB) not in league right now

So that's 18 draft picks; one starter; three guys who are 2nd on depth chart (12 guys not on the team anymore)

Indianapolis Colts (2008)

4th round: Jacob Tamme (TE) 3rd on depth chart
5th round: Marcus Howard (DE) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Tom Santi (TE) 4th on depth chart
6th round: Steve Justice (C) 2nd on depth chart
6th round: Mike Hart (RB) 3rd on depth chart, recovering from major injury
6th round: Pierre Garcon (WR) someone to watch out for as a #3 WR this year
7th round: Jamey Richard (C) 2nd on depth chart

Indianapolis Colts (2007)

4th round: Brannon Condren (DB) not in league right now (waived halfway through 2007 season by Colts)
4th round: Clint Session (LB) starting LB
5th round: Roy Hall (WR) not in league right now
5th round: Michael Coe (DB) 4th on depth chart
7th round: Keyunta Dawson (DT) 2nd on depth chart at LDE, 42 career tackles

Indianapolis Colts (2006)

5th round: Michael Toudouze (G) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Charlie Johnson (T) 10 game starter in 2007, 16 game starter in 2008
6th round: Antoine Bethea (SS) starter at Free Safety
7th round: TJ Rushing (DB) 3rd on depth chart (starter at punt returner)

16 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (1 guy not on the team anymore)

New York Giants (2008)

4th round: Bryan Kehl (OLB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Jonathan Goff (LB) 2 career tackles, not even sure he's still on the team
6th round: Andre Woodson (QB) Practice Squad, I think
6th round: Robert Henderson (DE) injured reserve

New York Giants (2007)

4th round: Zak DeOssie (LB) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Kevin Boss (TE) starter at TE
6th round: Adam Koets (T) 2nd on depth chart
7th round: Michael Johnson (S) starter
7th round: Ahmad Bradshaw (RB) great, great pick

New York Giants (2006)

4th round: Barry Cofield (NT) starter
4th round: Guy Whimper (T) Practice squad, I think
5th round: Charlie Peprah (DB) on Packers now (think he spent 2006 on Giants PS)
7th round: Gerrick McPhearson (DB) not in league right now (2006 Giants PS)

13 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (2 guys, at least, not on the team anymore)

Pittsburgh Steelers (2008)

4th round: Tony Hills (T) 2nd on depth chart
5th round: Dennis Dixon (QB) 3rd on depth chart
6th round: Mike Humpal (LB) not in league right now
6th round: Ryan Mundy (FS) 2nd on depth chart

Pittsburgh Steelers (2007)

4th round: Daniel Sepulveda (P) Was hurt last year, but he's good
4th round: Ryan McBean (DE) On Broncos now (played one game as a Steeler)
5th round: Cameron Stephenson (G) On Jaguars now (cut before 2007 season by Steelers)
5th round: William Gay (DB) starter
7th round: Dallas Baker (WR) 3rd on depth chart

Pittsburgh Steelers (2006)

4th round: Willie Colon (T) starter
4th round: Orien Harris (DT) On Lions now (did nothing with the Steelers)
5th round: Omar Jacobs (QB) not in league right now (cut before 2006 season by Steelers)
5th round: Charles Davis (TE) on Chargers now
6th round: Marvin Phillip (C) on Bills now
7th round: Cedric Humes (RB) not in league right now

15 picks; 2 starters, 2 backups (8 guys not on the team anymore)

From 2006 through 2008 the Redskins have had 15 draft picks from round 4 through 7; 1 starter and 5 backups (5 guys not on the team anymore)

In conclusion...you're wrong

SmootSmack, I appreciate the homework but I'm puzzled by your conclusion. Based on the stats you quoted, here is a summary.

Patriots: 18 picks; 1 starter; 3 2nd on depth chart (12 cuts)
Colts: 16 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (1 cut)
Giants: 13 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (2 cuts)
Steelers: 15 picks; 2 starters, 2 backups (8 cuts)
Skins: 15 picks; 1 starter and 5 backups (5 cuts)

Other than the Patriots, I see more starters and I would argue, better quality backups. I respectively disagree with your conclusion. I love the Skins but I don't blindly go along with everything they do. The Skins have a problem with there depth. If you can't see that, you are looking through blinders.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by hail_2_da_skins

SmootSmack, I appreciate the homework but I'm puzzled by your conclusion. Based on the stats you quoted, here is a summary.

Patriots: 18 picks; 1 starter; 3 2nd on depth chart (12 cuts)
Colts: 16 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (1 cut)
Giants: 13 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (2 cuts)
Steelers: 15 picks; 2 starters, 2 backups (8 cuts)
Skins: 15 picks; 1 starter and 5 backups (5 cuts)

Other than the Patriots, I see more starters and I would argue, better quality backups. I respectively disagree with your conclusion. I love the Skins but I don't blindly go along with everything they do. The Skins have a problem with there depth. If you can't see that, you are looking through blinders.

Better quality backups I suppose is up for debate. For example, I think Montgomery and Golston (basically starters until this year) are quality backups. Others may think otherwise.

I don't think the Steelers have really had much more success than us in the mid to late rounds. We're just talking one more starter.

But anyway, I believe what you said was that they consistenly find quality starters that we do not. I guess I took that to mean that you thought a high percentage of those draft picks are starters. When in reality that doesn't seem to be the case. At the end of the day (it is what it is) I don't think we have performed significantly worse (or different) than the elite teams. In fact, I thought the complaint has always been "We draft well for the most part, why don't we keep more of our picks?"

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I guess I took that to mean that you thought a high percentage of those draft picks are starters. When in reality that doesn't seem to be the case.

If we were counting only the draft picks between rounds 4 - 7, then this statement is correct. But that doesn't account for rounds 1 - 3.

It's all academic though -- whether it's building your team through free agency or the draft, the Lombardi trophies are enough proof that the Giants, Steelers, Pats, and Colts are clearly better at evaluating talent than the Redskins front office.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by hail_2_da_skins

SmootSmack, I appreciate the homework but I'm puzzled by your conclusion. Based on the stats you quoted, here is a summary.

Patriots: 18 picks; 1 starter; 3 2nd on depth chart (12 cuts)
Colts: 16 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (1 cut)
Giants: 13 picks; 4 starters; 2 backups (2 cuts)
Steelers: 15 picks; 2 starters, 2 backups (8 cuts)
Skins: 15 picks; 1 starter and 5 backups (5 cuts)

Other than the Patriots, I see more starters and I would argue, better quality backups. I respectively disagree with your conclusion. I love the Skins but I don't blindly go along with everything they do. The Skins have a problem with there depth. If you can't see that, you are looking through blinders.

I don't mean to be a prick (but I'm sure I'm going to sound like one), but the thing that annoys me about your initial thread, is that you bring the same tired/overused/outdated/beaten to death/cliche criticisms of the team....

Originally Posted by hail_2_da_skins

I was very disappointed with the Redskins performance in the first preseason game. People say these games are meaningless but that's a bunch of crap. These games mean everything for players that are in position battles (right tackle, wide receiver, defensive line, ...) and making the team. The disappointment is more with the lack of depth of the overall team. The Skins have some good marque players but the drop off in talent is tremendous. The reason for the drop off in talent is because of the organization philosophy of going after free agents and not through the draft. Most of the successful organizations (NE, Indy, Pittsburgh, Giants, ...) have built through the draft. I don't know why the Redskins continue to go against the grain. Not only does the Redskins trade away draft picks like Christmas presents but when they do select players, the picks are questionable. Our top draft picks have been good but the middle to late round picks are bad with one exception (Chris Horton). The good organizations consistently find quality starters in the middle rounds whereas the Skins pick guys like Justin Tryon or Durant Brooks that won't be around long.

Now I think that there could be a debate about our backups, how good they should be, etc., etc....but I'm sorry not everyone is going to be the Pats, Colts, or Steelers. I know the Redskins as an organization have a lot to improve upon, but for once I would like to see for things to click together, for our young players to develop, and for us to have some freaking luck. And we're not going to see that until the regular season starts.

Personally, I think getting quality backups is part talent and part luck. I mean who knew Horton would be starter after being picked in the 7th round? Who knew Brady would be a Pro Bowler/HOF'er after being selected in the later rounds?

I think for the most part, our team is building through the draft (except that people want to see instant results), has picked up quality free agents (Fletch, AH, DHall), and is making an effort to keep their draft picks. But they have also had bad luck (J. Taylor) and are still dealing with some of the consequences of bad decisions in the past.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I don't mean to be a prick (but I'm sure I'm going to sound like one), but the thing that annoys me about your initial thread, is that you bring the same tired/overused/outdated/beaten to death/cliche criticisms of the team....



Now I think that there could be a debate about our backups, how good they should be, etc., etc....but I'm sorry not everyone is going to be the Pats, Colts, or Steelers. I know the Redskins as an organization have a lot to improve upon, but for once I would like to see for things to click together, for our young players to develop, and for us to have some freaking luck. And we're not going to see that until the regular season starts.

Personally, I think getting quality backups is part talent and part luck. I mean who knew Horton would be starter after being picked in the 7th round? Who knew Brady would be a Pro Bowler/HOF'er after being selected in the later rounds?

I think for the most part, our team is building through the draft (except that people want to see instant results), has picked up quality free agents (Fletch, AH, DHall), and is making an effort to keep their draft picks. But they have also had bad luck (J. Taylor) and are still dealing with some of the consequences of bad decisions in the past.

Yes. Building through the draft takes time and patience over several years.