Campbell's numbers dont lie

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

A great qb is the start of a great team, a bad qb is the start of a bad team, and an average qb is the start of an average team. The redskins team is a bad team and it starts with campbell as a player.

And I am pretty sure with better qb play - the redskins would be 3-0 instead of 1-2.

I completely disagree. Teams are built on the offensive and defensive lines. A great offensive line can make an average to below average quarterback look amazing(Rypien, Doug Williams, Matt Hasselbeck, etc.), and bad offensive lines can make even elite quarterbacks look average or worse.

Plenty of teams have had elite quarterback play and have still been average to bad. The Saints of 2007 were 7-9 with Drew Brees. The Packers went 6-10 last season with Aaron Rogers.

I agree that if you put Peyton Manning on this team, it may be worth a few extra wins, but the biggest problem with Washington is absolutely not the quarterback.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I completely disagree. Teams are built on the offensive and defensive lines. A great offensive line can make an average to below average quarterback look amazing(Rypien, Doug Williams, Matt Hasselbeck, etc.), and bad offensive lines can make even elite quarterbacks look average or worse.

Plenty of teams have had elite quarterback play and have still been average to bad. The Saints of 2007 were 7-9 with Drew Brees. The Packers went 6-10 last season with Aaron Rogers.

I agree that if you put Peyton Manning on this team, it may be worth a few extra wins, but the biggest problem with Washington is absolutely not the quarterback.

Hasselbeck is legit and Brees and Rodgers were victims of poor Defenses, but I don't necessarily disagree with your point that a great Offensive line can make an average QB look good and a good QB look great, etc. And a QB who has all day to throw can make average Receivers look good, etc. Even more evidence that picking 3 Receivers in the 2nd round was stupid. Who was Brady throwing to again when he won 3 Super Bowls? Branch and Gaffney? Skill positions don't mean jack.

I've said time and time again that I think Campbell could take a team like the Titans of last year deep into the playoffs. I just don't think he's good enough to overcome deficiencies in other parts of the Offense. If everything else is perfect (Elite O line, Elite Defense, Dominant Running Game), I don't see any reason Campbell couldn't win a Super Bowl like Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer did. Of course, both went on to become back-ups, but at least they got their ring.

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by 44Deezel

Hasselbeck is legit and Brees and Rodgers were victims of poor Defenses

I consider Hasselbeck average because he has had five "good" seasons out of eleven, and most of his career was spent on a team with a dominant run game and above average defense.

And my point for adding Brees and Rodgers was to illustrate the fact that even they could not overcome deficiencies on their respective teams. Right now, I think the only quarterback that you could add to a below average team and possibly make the playoffs is Peyton Manning.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I consider Hasselbeck average because he has had five "good" seasons out of eleven, and most of his career was spent on a team with a dominant run game and above average defense.

And my point for adding Brees and Rodgers was to illustrate the fact that even they could not overcome deficiencies on their respective teams. Right now, I think the only quarterback that you could add to a below average team and possibly make the playoffs is Peyton Manning.

He doesn't need to overcome anything. I hate to be redundant, but all he needs to do as quarterback is to make big plays. And I know it's better said than done, but without the qb making plays then you can't be a considered a superbowl contender- unless you have an all-time great defense. 2 losses that easily could have been won by campbell if he makes the plays - this is the difference between 10-6 and 8-8 of last season.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

2 losses that easily could have been won by campbell if he makes the plays - this is the difference between 10-6 and 8-8 of last season.

Surely you're kidding. I hope you're also prepared to GIVE credit to the QB for every game in which the Redskins won and at least one first down was gained due to a completed pass.

The story of this team the past 5 years is measured in made or missed field goals, one TD or less. You start trotting out examples of games that "coulda shoulda" been won, you need to put all the games that WERE won up as well.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by dgack

Surely you're kidding. I hope you're also prepared to GIVE credit to the QB for every game in which the Redskins won and at least one first down was gained due to a completed pass.

The story of this team the past 5 years is measured in made or missed field goals, one TD or less. You start trotting out examples of games that "coulda shoulda" been won, you need to put all the games that WERE won up as well.

Of course, I would be giving credit- IF the redskins had a winning record. But they are at 1-2. It wouldn't make sense to look at the wins from the previous seasons and giving out credit, when they are losing and not performing well now.

[dgack]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Of course, I would be giving credit- IF the redskins had a winning record. But they are at 1-2. It wouldn't make sense to look at the wins from the previous seasons and giving out credit, when they are losing and not performing well now.

So just so I'm clear:

* Campbell is to blame for at least a few of the games we lost last year.
* If we had a winning record *this* year, he'd get some back credit for the wins *last* year but since we lost one game more than we've won this season, he does not.

Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I consider Hasselbeck average because he has had five "good" seasons out of eleven, and most of his career was spent on a team with a dominant run game and above average defense.

And my point for adding Brees and Rodgers was to illustrate the fact that even they could not overcome deficiencies on their respective teams. Right now, I think the only quarterback that you could add to a below average team and possibly make the playoffs is Peyton Manning.

I'd say 6 years and he was a back-up for the first 2 and injured the last couple. And he still kicked our asses when we knocked his dominant running back out of the game in the first quarter of the playoffs a few years back. BTW, I didn't say he was hall of fame material, but he's a legitimate, unquestioned and un-threatened starter. My point in previous posts with Campbell is that I don't think any other team would take him to be their guaranteed starter if we were to let him walk at the end of the season. I could be wrong, but that's my opinion.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

I completely disagree. Teams are built on the offensive and defensive lines. A great offensive line can make an average to below average quarterback look amazing(Rypien, Doug Williams, Matt Hasselbeck, etc.), and bad offensive lines can make even elite quarterbacks look average or worse.

Plenty of teams have had elite quarterback play and have still been average to bad. The Saints of 2007 were 7-9 with Drew Brees. The Packers went 6-10 last season with Aaron Rogers.

I agree that if you put Peyton Manning on this team, it may be worth a few extra wins, but the biggest problem with Washington is absolutely not the quarterback.

The offensive line can't be attributed to his mistakes or his lack of playmaking. The issue with the quarterbacks you listed is that they proved themselves with good and great teams, and it all started with the quartebacks. They made the big plays. It can't be overstated the impact that the quarterback makes on any team.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

The offensive line can't be attributed to his mistakes or his lack of playmaking. The issue with the quarterbacks you listed is that they proved themselves with good and great teams, and it all started with the quartebacks. They made the big plays. It can't be overstated the impact that the quarterback makes on any team.

Not advocating starting Collins, but I will say that the same O line looked much better when Collins was behind center than it did when Campbell was the QB. The backs had bigger holes to run through (maybe because Defenses had more respect for the passing game) and pass protection was not a problem (maybe because Collins got the ball out quicker). The Receivers and Defense played better as well. But I will acknowledge that Campbell is better now than he was then and Collins is probably worse now than he was then (playing in Saunder's system)

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

The offensive line can't be attributed to his mistakes or his lack of playmaking.

Does that mean that Tom Brady's mistakes and lack of playmaking in the Super Bowl against the Giants was entirely his fault, or do you think it had something to do with the Giants front four manhandling the Pats offensive line?

Basically, my point is the quarterback is the top brick of the pyramid that is the 53 man roster, and you don't build a pyramid by trying to place the top brick, first.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

Does that mean that Tom Brady's mistakes and lack of playmaking in the Super Bowl against the Giants was entirely his fault, or do you think it had something to do with the Giants front four manhandling the Pats offensive line?

Basically, my point is the quarterback is the top brick of the pyramid that is the 53 man roster, and you don't build a pyramid by trying to place the top brick, first.

Let's not forget that despite being punished and harassed all game long by the Giants D, Brady marched his team 80 yards down the field to take a late lead and then handed the game to his Defense. They were the victims of the most ridiculous, circus plays of all time. Brady was sacked 5 times in that game. I don't remember Campbell leading his team on such a drive when he was sacked 7 times against the Steelers last year. Yes, Brady looked average against Giants in that game, but he was still good enough to carry his team to a late lead. Same with Brees this past weekend. The Bills were in his grill all game, but he (and his coaching staff) righted the ship and still scored 27... which will probably be a season low for them

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by Southpaw

Does that mean that Tom Brady's mistakes and lack of playmaking in the Super Bowl against the Giants was entirely his fault, or do you think it had something to do with the Giants front four manhandling the Pats offensive line?

Basically, my point is the quarterback is the top brick of the pyramid that is the 53 man roster, and you don't build a pyramid by trying to place the top brick, first.

Different game and different season. I believe if you put the Tom Brady of that game in with the redskins in the Giants and Lions games of this season, I think that the redskins would have won the giants game and would have whipped up on the Lions.

Just look at Brady in the first game of this season, he made the big plays to win that game when he had the chance. Campbell has had his chances, too.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by warriorzpath

Different game and different season. I believe if you put the Tom Brady of that game in with the redskins in the Giants and Lions games of this season, I think that the redskins would have won the giants game and would have whipped up on the Lions.

Just look at Brady in the first game of this season, he made the big plays to win that game when he had the chance. Campbell has had his chances, too.

Not *this years* Tom Brady. We'd probably be 0-3.

Pre-injury Brady, yes, I think we beat the Lions to go to 2-1.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Not *this years* Tom Brady. We'd probably be 0-3.

Pre-injury Brady, yes, I think we beat the Lions to go to 2-1.

I'd take this year's Brady in a heartbeat. And we'd be 3-0.