Our next coach??

[SmootSmack]

I believe there will be two franchise tags available per team in an uncapped year

I wish they would make a long-term decision one way or another on Campbell this off-season.

Ganther, Rock, and Mason all feel like the same RB to me. Hard working 10-15 touches a game backs. Their contributions are important but I don't see them as being our lead backs ever. They're like Keith Griffin

(side note-watching Zorn's press conference and it's amazing how candid he is about what his coaching future is)

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I believe there will be two franchise tags available per team in an uncapped year

I wish they would make a long-term decision one way or another on Campbell this off-season.

Ganther, Rock, and Mason all feel like the same RB to me. Hard working 10-15 touches a game backs. Their contributions are important but I don't see them as being our lead backs ever. They're like Keith Griffin

(side note-watching Zorn's press conference and it's amazing how candid he is about what his coaching future is)

Yeah, i noticed the same thing. And he admitted to the fact that every time he injected himself in the playcalling process, it was a failed play. I don't necessarily agree with the way Zorn's been treated, but our whole playcalling system is ridiculous.

he seems to be pushing hard to make snyder look like a fool for not giving him a third year, with all his comments about how long it takes for players to grasp the system and get to the point where they can really play fast and exploit defenses.

My biggest fear is something that Thom and Kevin were talking about before the press conference, though - with the 2008 draft class finally contributing and making plays (thomas, davis, kelly, tryon, moore, etc.) it only reinforces the notion that the FO structure that Snyder and Cerrato are running is working, as good talent is being acquired, and the only problem with the team is the coach - zorn. I'm becoming less and less certain that Cerrato will get the axe after the season ends.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Yeah, i noticed the same thing. And he admitted to the fact that every time he injected himself in the playcalling process, it was a failed play. I don't necessarily agree with the way Zorn's been treated, but our whole playcalling system is ridiculous.

he seems to be pushing hard to make snyder look like a fool for not giving him a third year, with all his comments about how long it takes for players to grasp the system and get to the point where they can really play fast and exploit defenses.

My biggest fear is something that Thom and Kevin were talking about before the press conference, though - with the 2008 draft class finally contributing and making plays (thomas, davis, kelly, tryon, moore, etc.) it only reinforces the notion that the FO structure that Snyder and Cerrato are running is working, as good talent is being acquired, and the only problem with the team is the coach - zorn. I'm becoming less and less certain that Cerrato will get the axe after the season ends.

He was only joking about every play he called being a failure...but he did call the plays at the end of the game

You don't often hear coaches talk about how tough it is for them when they know they're on the verge of being fired. It's usually canned, cliche responses. Not from Zorn

And maybe the problem with the team is the coach? Or at least that he's tried to take on too much.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

He was only joking about every play he called being a failure...but he did call the plays at the end of the game

You don't often hear coaches talk about how tough it is for them when they know they're on the verge of being fired. It's usually canned, cliche responses. Not from Zorn

And maybe the problem with the team is the coach? Or at least that he's tried to take on too much.

He was laughing, but i got the impression there was some truth to it... i agree that Zorn took on way too much when he started and think this offense would have been much better if he'd had less responsibility. However, it was HIS decision to take on that much responsiblity, when i'm sure everyone advising him told him it would be too much.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

He was only joking about every play he called being a failure...but he did call the plays at the end of the game

You don't often hear coaches talk about how tough it is for them when they know they're on the verge of being fired. It's usually canned, cliche responses. Not from Zorn

And maybe the problem with the team is the coach? Or at least that he's tried to take on too much.

I just don't think that explains everything that has happened to this team this year. Perhaps bad coaching is a reason that we've lost close games on the margin, but getting outcoached wouldn't explain why Detroit, Tampa Bay, Carolina, and K.C. were all in games with us in the second half.

Issues at the safety level of the defense, and on the outside on offense, as well as up front I think are primarily responsible for the team underachieving expectations.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

He was only joking about every play he called being a failure...but he did call the plays at the end of the game

You don't often hear coaches talk about how tough it is for them when they know they're on the verge of being fired. It's usually canned, cliche responses. Not from Zorn

And maybe the problem with the team is the coach? Or at least that he's tried to take on too much.

I know that coaches have big ego's but I don't see why he takes over play calling. So that if it works he can say that he was the one that called them?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

He was only joking about every play he called being a failure...but he did call the plays at the end of the game

Kevin actually asked Zorn about this on the Jim Zorn show today. Zorn said he called all the plays in the final drives of both halves.

From NFL.com - First Half

Washington Redskins at 00:49
1-10-WAS 35 (:42) (Shotgun) PENALTY on WAS-76-L.Jones, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 35 - No Play. FAIL

1-15-WAS 30 (:41) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 31-R.Cartwright pushed ob at WAS 40 for 10 yards (52-T.White). PARTIAL SUCCESS

2-5-WAS 40 (:35) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 11-D.Thomas to WAS 37 for -3 yards (24-S.Brown). FAIL

Timeout #2 by WAS at 00:28.
3-8-WAS 37 (:28) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short right intended for 11-D.Thomas INTERCEPTED by 22-A.Samuel [58-T.Cole] at WAS 45. 22-A.Samuel to WAS 28 for 17 yards (11-D.Thomas). FAIL


From NFL.com - Second Half

1-10-WAS 16 (1:44) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short left to 11-D.Thomas [58-T.Cole]. FAIL

2-10-WAS 16 (1:39) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete deep middle to 86-F.Davis. FAIL

3-10-WAS 16 (1:33) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short middle to 82-A.Randle El to WAS 25 for 9 yards (35-V.Harris). FAIL

4-1-WAS 25 (1:09) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short right to 89-S.Moss [75-J.Parker]. WAS-17-J.Campbell was injured during the play. His return is Doubtful. FAIL

So of the 8 plays that Zorn admitted to calling, 7 of them were complete failures. When you consider the goal of both drives was to score before the half expired, all 8 plays can be considered failures as they did not result in the redskins putting points on the board. Granted, Zorn only calls the plays - he doesn't execute them, but the fact remains that, for whatever reason, the team executed better when Zorn wasn't calling plays.

I would be interested in knowing how many of the plays/drives that have succeeded since Sherm took over the majority of the playcalling duties (and our offense started gelling) can be attributed to Zorn. I certainly doubt very many.

[calia]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Kevin actually asked Zorn about this on the Jim Zorn show today. Zorn said he called all the plays in the final drives of both halves.

From NFL.com - First Half

Washington Redskins at 00:49
1-10-WAS 35 (:42) (Shotgun) PENALTY on WAS-76-L.Jones, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 35 - No Play. FAIL

1-15-WAS 30 (:41) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 31-R.Cartwright pushed ob at WAS 40 for 10 yards (52-T.White). PARTIAL SUCCESS

2-5-WAS 40 (:35) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short left to 11-D.Thomas to WAS 37 for -3 yards (24-S.Brown). FAIL

Timeout #2 by WAS at 00:28.
3-8-WAS 37 (:28) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short right intended for 11-D.Thomas INTERCEPTED by 22-A.Samuel [58-T.Cole] at WAS 45. 22-A.Samuel to WAS 28 for 17 yards (11-D.Thomas). FAIL


From NFL.com - Second Half

1-10-WAS 16 (1:44) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short left to 11-D.Thomas [58-T.Cole]. FAIL

2-10-WAS 16 (1:39) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete deep middle to 86-F.Davis. FAIL

3-10-WAS 16 (1:33) (Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass short middle to 82-A.Randle El to WAS 25 for 9 yards (35-V.Harris). FAIL

4-1-WAS 25 (1:09) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 17-J.Campbell pass incomplete short right to 89-S.Moss [75-J.Parker]. WAS-17-J.Campbell was injured during the play. His return is Doubtful. FAIL

So of the 8 plays that Zorn admitted to calling, 7 of them were complete failures. When you consider the goal of both drives was to score before the half expired, all 8 plays can be considered failures as they did not result in the redskins putting points on the board. Granted, Zorn only calls the plays - he doesn't execute them, but the fact remains that, for whatever reason, the team executed better when Zorn wasn't calling plays.

I would be interested in knowing how many of the plays/drives that have succeeded since Sherm took over the majority of the playcalling duties (and our offense started gelling) can be attributed to Zorn. I certainly doubt very many.

But this doesn't explain why those plays failed. My recollection is that most of them failed because there was little protection from the O-line. At some point, a coach has to rely on the line to provide adequate protection -- especially when it is a final drive with little time remaining and you're behind. I am not sure I would blame these failures on playcalling.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by calia

But this doesn't explain why those plays failed. My recollection is that most of them failed because there was little protection from the O-line. At some point, a coach has to rely on the line to provide adequate protection -- especially when it is a final drive with little time remaining and you're behind. I am not sure I would blame these failures on playcalling.

There's a rush on the passer on the plays that work too.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

There's a rush on the passer on the plays that work too.

exactly.

Also, when it was just Zorn calling the plays, I gave him a little nod, cuz D's "knew the book on him" and so they maybe could tee off some, but now, you would have to say that they can't really know which coach/advisor/other random space alien is going to be calling any specific play and yet the times where Zorn makes the call just seem to fail. It's a shame, you work your whole life and dream of being a playcaller, and then you get the opportunity, that's the kinda guy and scenario everyone roots for. To have it blow up like it has, well, it's just a bummer of a situation for him and for the team.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

My biggest fear is something that Thom and Kevin were talking about before the press conference, though - with the 2008 draft class finally contributing and making plays (thomas, davis, kelly, tryon, moore, etc.) it only reinforces the notion that the FO structure that Snyder and Cerrato are running is working, as good talent is being acquired, and the only problem with the team is the coach - zorn. I'm becoming less and less certain that Cerrato will get the axe after the season ends.

Problem is though, even if we ignore the first 23 games of the careers of those guys, and just use the last four games as a barometer of the quality of the picks, you still have two guys who are performing at a 4th round level of play (Thomas and Kelly), and one guy who is living up to his draft status, but not exceeding it (Davis), when the whole idea of the selection was that he would be like a first round TE in the second round.

Thomas and Kelly might be offering us more than Moss is right now, but that's more of a discredit to what Moss is offering than due to the numerous strides made by both Kelly and Thomas.

They are however, both very cheap for the next two years, so I think you could build an offense that focuses on the TEs and slot receivers in the passing game, and start Kelly and Thomas at the receivers and have a respectable offense if the OL is improved.

Is there a dynamic slot reciever that we could acquire through the draft? Golden Tate, maybe (even though I don't think he comes out)?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Problem is though, even if we ignore the first 23 games of the careers of those guys, and just use the last four games as a barometer of the quality of the picks, you still have two guys who are performing at a 4th round level of play (Thomas and Kelly), and one guy who is living up to his draft status, but not exceeding it (Davis), when the whole idea of the selection was that he would be like a first round TE in the second round.

Thomas and Kelly might be offering us more than Moss is right now, but that's more of a discredit to what Moss is offering than due to the numerous strides made by both Kelly and Thomas.

They are however, both very cheap for the next two years, so I think you could build an offense that focuses on the TEs and slot receivers in the passing game, and start Kelly and Thomas at the receivers and have a respectable offense if the OL is improved.

Is there a dynamic slot reciever that we could acquire through the draft? Golden Tate, maybe (even though I don't think he comes out)?

Prioritizing our needs, I honestly don't see receiver as being a position we need to upgrade in 2009. I think ARE just needs to be cut and Moss moved into the slot.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Prioritizing our needs, I honestly don't see receiver as being a position we need to upgrade in 2009. I think ARE just needs to be cut and Moss moved into the slot.

But then who is the third down target if teams want to take away Cooley? Davis, perhaps?

Or do we just assume Moss makes a seamless transition and suddenly becomes dependable again.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But then who is the third down target if teams want to take away Cooley? Davis, perhaps?

Or do we just assume Moss makes a seamless transition and suddenly becomes dependable again.

I think he'd certainly be more productive in the slot and win more matchups. I also think that, whether they have true #1/2 talent or not, Thomas and Kelly would do "fine" as our outside receivers. at the very least, you'd have bigger bodies out deeper blocking for moss on a lot of plays. If even one of them develops, it would keep defenses honest, forcing them to keep a safety back and not double up cooley and Moss on third downs.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I think he'd certainly be more productive in the slot and win more matchups. I also think that, whether they have true #1/2 talent or not, Thomas and Kelly would do "fine" as our outside receivers. at the very least, you'd have bigger bodies out deeper blocking for moss on a lot of plays. If even one of them develops, it would keep defenses honest, forcing them to keep a safety back and not double up cooley and Moss on third downs.

Yeah, and like I tried (probably failed) to point out above, this is still a rushing team by nature. At their current cost, neither Thomas or Kelly is a bad option to go out there in a base 3 WR offense.

One of the things I forsee next year is an offense where Davis plays a traditional tight end full-time, and Cooley returns to more of an H-Back/Joker role where he may line up in the backfield, on the line, in the slot, or isolated out wide on any given play.

But if we want to be more of a passing offense (and if we draft a QB, how could we not argue that point), we also need a more dynamic slot receiver to work with. Our receivers are adequate, if we are going to put the ball on the ground as much as we are currently doing.

But then we need to be more successful when we run.