RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Sorry but Marshall is a lot more than a "splashy free agent." It's one thing bringing in guys like ARE, Lloyd and Moss. But this guy can just take over and catch 20 passes in one game. Shanahan will know how to use him. If a player of this caliber is on the market, which it looks like he is, then we need to do everything we can to get him. BM is a true #1 wr and it's exactly what the offense needs. He would make everyone on our offense better.

Marshall is a fringe No. 1 who clearly has the talent to be so much more. So many of his catches in any given game are of the useless variety.

He was a lot improved this year with Orton at QB I thought because instead of being a limiting factor on his quarterback when Cutler was there, he became a positive factor for Orton who doesn't have the type of downfield accuracy that Cutler does.

But ultimately, Marshall's catch rate numbers and other value metrics are the same every year, which means that, even though his improvements have been evident, we really do know what he is at this point. And he's not a "true" No. 1, like an Owens, Moss, Wayne, Holt, or Vincent Jackson all in their primes. Like Braylon, he's an above average player who is expendable at a good price.

[DIE-NASTY]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Marshall is a fringe No. 1 who clearly has the talent to be so much more. So many of his catches in any given game are of the useless variety.

He was a lot improved this year with Orton at QB I thought because instead of being a limiting factor on his quarterback when Cutler was there, he became a positive factor for Orton who doesn't have the type of downfield accuracy that Cutler does.

But ultimately, Marshall's catch rate numbers and other value metrics are the same every year, which means that, even though his improvements have been evident, we really do know what he is at this point. And he's not a "true" No. 1, like an Owens, Moss, Wayne, Holt, or Vincent Jackson all in their primes. Like Braylon, he's an above average player who is expendable at a good price.

Marshall has had 100 catches each of the last three years (he's only been in the league four years). I'd say that qualifies him as a bonafide No. 1 WR. Braylon Edwards is a flash in the pan. Good for the Browns for dumping him (and Winslow) when they could.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by DIE-NASTY

Marshall has had 100 catches each of the last three years (he's only been in the league four years). I'd say that qualifies him as a bonafide No. 1 WR. Braylon Edwards is a flash in the pan. Good for the Browns for dumping him (and Winslow) when they could.

Interesting point here, but my response would be, do you consider Jamal Lewis to be a hall of famer?

In his first four years he rushed for 1,000 yards in each and had a 2,000 yard season and a pro bowl/all pro season. At the time, he was averaging 4.6 yards per carry, which is certainly a hall of fame figure.

It's not a perfect comparison by any means, they don't play the same position, and no one is calling Brandon Marshall a future hall of famer, but I'm making the comparison because Lewis' per play metrics were never that impressive even in his early days (including his 2,000 yd season) and he had a jail stint and predictably declined.

But he's one of six players in NFL history to rush for 2,000 yards (and I'd imagine Marshall is one of roughly the same number to have three consecutive 100 reception seasons), so shouldn't Lewis be in the hall of fame someday?

[HugeMonkFan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Interesting point here, but my response would be, do you consider Jamal Lewis to be a hall of famer?

In his first four years he rushed for 1,000 yards in each and had a 2,000 yard season and a pro bowl/all pro season. At the time, he was averaging 4.6 yards per carry, which is certainly a hall of fame figure.

It's not a perfect comparison by any means, they don't play the same position, and no one is calling Brandon Marshall a future hall of famer, but I'm making the comparison because Lewis' per play metrics were never that impressive even in his early days (including his 2,000 yd season) and he had a jail stint and predictably declined.

But he's one of six players in NFL history to rush for 2,000 yards (and I'd imagine Marshall is one of roughly the same number to have three consecutive 100 reception seasons), so shouldn't Lewis be in the hall of fame someday?

im kinda confused why you went on a hall of fame rant there. but i think marshall is hitting his strike and is gonna be in his prime for another few years....why wouldnt any team like to have this guy outside of his off the field shit? i do agree with whoever said he will prob end up on a team like the dolphins or ravens. The dolphins seem like a young team and need that big number one receiver (and yes i believe BM is a legit number 1). the ravens have to start thinking about the future due to a large number of their best players are getting up there in age. i mean i wouldnt be entirely surprised if shanny and danny try to get him but i think we have bigger fish to catch at this point. we have a couple of young guys still improving in Thomas and Kelly that could, maybe, one day turn into a decent number one. i would rather us go after o line help and peppers then BM.

o and lol to Buster for the Brian Michell comment...we could use him at this point lol

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by HugeMonkFan

im kinda confused why you went on a hall of fame rant there. but i think marshall is hitting his strike and is gonna be in his prime for another few years....why wouldnt any team like to have this guy outside of his off the field shit? i do agree with whoever said he will prob end up on a team like the dolphins or ravens. The dolphins seem like a young team and need that big number one receiver (and yes i believe BM is a legit number 1). the ravens have to start thinking about the future due to a large number of their best players are getting up there in age. i mean i wouldnt be entirely surprised if shanny and danny try to get him but i think we have bigger fish to catch at this point. we have a couple of young guys still improving in Thomas and Kelly that could, maybe, one day turn into a decent number one. i would rather us go after o line help and peppers then BM.

o and lol to Buster for the Brian Michell comment...we could use him at this point lol

I went on a hall of fame rant...because it made sense to me at the time.

But the true point, which I stand by, is about productivity measures. Marshall has never been a very productive player. But he certainly accounts for a large portion of his teams offense every season, as evidenced by a low catch rate and a high number of receptions every year. He's roughly 1/3 of his teams entire offense, which is basically unheard of for a single receiver.

Marshall's strengths include being an excellent bad ball saver (which leads to spectacular catches), and being a very valuable receiver and route runner in the deep field. But despite his strong frame and hands, he's one of the worst underneath targets in pro football. He'll go over the middle, but a lot of his quarterbacks interceptions occur on those deep dig routes to Marshall. He's not very good at that bubble screen, even though they run it to him all the time, and though he's very good after the catch, he can't (doesn't?) really run away from linebackers on drags.

You, generally speaking, don't want to run 1/3 of your offense through a player like that. It's not a winning strategy. You DO want to use his big play ability multiple times a game. But when Brandon Marshall catches 20 passes, it tells me that he's not really commanding the respect of the defense as the argument for him being a true no. 1 would suggest he does. The Colts--who might know something about defense--didn't feel like they needed to take Brandon Marshall away to win. They were right.

It's not like Denver has a gaping hole at No. 1 WR like, say, St. Louis. Marshall is adequate for the role. He's just not a "go-to" type of character. That's not really his game. He'd be more effective if a team lived off the running game, tight end, and slot receiver, and then like DeSean Jackson, you send him deep every half or so and try to let him break the game wide open (Jackson is actually good at the WR screen though). Given where Denver is as an offense, they can certainly afford to part ways with him.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Marshall is a fringe No. 1 who clearly has the talent to be so much more. So many of his catches in any given game are of the useless variety.

He was a lot improved this year with Orton at QB I thought because instead of being a limiting factor on his quarterback when Cutler was there, he became a positive factor for Orton who doesn't have the type of downfield accuracy that Cutler does.

But ultimately, Marshall's catch rate numbers and other value metrics are the same every year, which means that, even though his improvements have been evident, we really do know what he is at this point. And he's not a "true" No. 1, like an Owens, Moss, Wayne, Holt, or Vincent Jackson all in their primes. Like Braylon, he's an above average player who is expendable at a good price.

Sorry Tripp but I don't judge guys on metrics. And neither does anyone that plays in the NFL. Above average players simply don't catch 20 + passes on two different occasion, put up 100 + catches 3 years in a row. It just doesn't happen. I mean the guy had 100 catches w/ Kyle Orton as his QB, plus he missed a game. His credentials on the field speak for themsleves. We haven't seen that type of production at the WR spot since the Posse days. You may not know what he is at this point but I think the rest of the NFL does. And I can promise you the NFL and the guys who defend him don't think of Brandon Marshall as an above average player.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Sorry Tripp but I don't judge guys on metrics. And neither does anyone that plays in the NFL. Above average players simply don't catch 20 + passes on two different occasion, put up 100 + catches 3 years in a row. It just doesn't happen. I mean the guy had 100 catches w/ Kyle Orton as his QB, plus he missed a game. His credentials on the field speak for themsleves. We haven't seen that type of production at the WR spot since the Posse days. You may not know what he is at this point but I think the rest of the NFL does. And I can promise you the NFL and the guys who defend him don't think of Brandon Marshall as an above average player.

Agreed, I don't know of too many "fringe #1" types that put up 3 consecutive 100+ catch seasons. Those are some serious big boy numbers.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Sorry Tripp but I don't judge guys on metrics. And neither does anyone that plays in the NFL. Above average players simply don't catch 20 + passes on two different occasion, put up 100 + catches 3 years in a row. It just doesn't happen. I mean the guy had 100 catches w/ Kyle Orton as his QB, plus he missed a game. His credentials on the field speak for themsleves. We haven't seen that type of production at the WR spot since the Posse days. You may not know what he is at this point but I think the rest of the NFL does. And I can promise you the NFL and the guys who defend him don't think of Brandon Marshall as an above average player.

So, would you say that it's the football guy who wanted to cut him (Shanahan) who doesn't know what he is at this point, or the current coach who wants to trade him rather than work with him (McDaniels)? Or are they not "football people" if they disagree with you?

Also, do not bother to tell me that you don't judge guys on metrics, while spitting two or three different metrics back at me as to why your point should be considered. You absolutely do use stats to back your points, but high receptions don't tell you anything about the effectiveness of a given player. In a vacuum, high reception players are better than low reception players, but Marshall isn't being compared to Early Doucet and Sam Hurd here. I don't think that Marshall's 100 catch seasons should be ignored, but if most of his catches don't produce first downs, he's not an elite player. Period.

If the Broncos can get a bunch of draft picks and a quarterback or a defensive player for Marshall, more power to them. He'll probably be the No. 1 wherever he goes next , and maybe at some point in his career, he'll play with a defense that will get him into the postseason. He'll always make those highlight reel catches because he's highly skilled at them, but Marshall shouldn't be mentioned with the best in the game. If he is, then his reception total is being overvalued, which, believe it or not, is a stat.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

So, would you say that it's the football guy who wanted to cut him (Shanahan) who doesn't know what he is at this point, or the current coach who wants to trade him rather than work with him (McDaniels)? Or are they not "football people" if they disagree with you?

Also, do not bother to tell me that you don't judge guys on metrics, while spitting two or three different metrics back at me as to why your point should be considered. You absolutely do use stats to back your points, but high receptions don't tell you anything about the effectiveness of a given player. In a vacuum, high reception players are better than low reception players, but Marshall isn't being compared to Early Doucet and Sam Hurd here. I don't think that Marshall's 100 catch seasons should be ignored, but if most of his catches don't produce first downs, he's not an elite player. Period.

If the Broncos can get a bunch of draft picks and a quarterback or a defensive player for Marshall, more power to them. He'll probably be the No. 1 wherever he goes next , and maybe at some point in his career, he'll play with a defense that will get him into the postseason. He'll always make those highlight reel catches because he's highly skilled at them, but Marshall shouldn't be mentioned with the best in the game. If he is, then his reception total is being overvalued, which, believe it or not, is a stat.

Do you have any proof that Shanahan wanted to cut him? All I'm saying is Marshall does things that 90% of the NFL wr's can't do. Calling him "above average" is just ridiculous. I've seen the guy play and just by watching him he's a stud. Runs like a RB after the catch, has good hands and he has the ability to take over games, he's physical...he's everything our offense needs. Your argument comparing Marshall to Edwards is just silly. We'll just agree to disagree.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Do you have any proof that Shanahan wanted to cut him? All I'm saying is Marshall does things that 90% of the NFL wr's can't do. Calling him "above average" is just ridiculous. I've seen the guy play and just by watching him he's a stud. Runs like a RB after the catch, has good hands and he has the ability to take over games, he's physical...he's everything our offense needs. Your argument comparing Marshall to Edwards is just silly. We'll just agree to disagree.

No one has "proof" because it did not happen. But conflicts between Shanny and Marshall were widely reported over the course of months.