Time to Build an Offensive Line

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

With that being said, here is your challenge. You are the GM (or Shanahan), how do you build the Redskins offensive line? Who do you keep? Who do you cut? Who would you draft? And which free agent would you go after?

I've tried to envision a scenario where we upgrade the OL independent of the 4th pick and while i can come up with improvements its only because of how bad the OL was last year.

LT-Stephon Heyer-it would require hope that a healthy Heyer can show the promise he showed at the end of 2008 when he took over the LT spot from an injured Samuels, Heyer played the majority of the season with a knee injury that often prevented him from practicing: Ratng... Serviceable to good,

LG-Dockery-Good

C-Edwin Williams-- I think its time to find out if Edwin Williams is ready to step up, as a rookie UDFA pressed into playing out of position at RG he played well. Maybe moving him to his natural position of Center will make the middle of the OL more stout then its been with Rabach. Rabach is a decent center but he's a FA and he's not strong at the point (and Ratliff owns him twice err!!) On the flip side he could provide veteran leadership on an OL in tranisition-but on the flip side of that why wait to build the OL into a young cohesive unit ready to grow and improve togother starting with the Center?-Rating: Serviceable to good

RG-Rinehart i thought he played well after he was finally placed into the starting line-up after needless handwringing and concern. One thing i never understood was why they let Rinehart get all the reps while Randy Thomas was recovering from his injuries then broke the cohesion by putting Thomas in as the starter when he returned from his injury. But when Thomas was injured again the acted like Rinehart wasn't ready to play and tried playing Montgomery and Williams instead? And imo Rinehart played better then both those guys.

RT-2nd round pick hopefully Bruce Campbell but that's unlikely maybe... Duccase or Charles Brown lasts they could play RT until/if they show they're ready to play LT or they could stat at LT until they show they can't handle it, i would prefer they start at RT then move over, but if there is a run on OT which is likely Ducasse and Brown might not even being around when we pick in the 2nd and don't like hope as a strategy for landing OL via the draft

FA:
Tony Pashos via FA he's cheap and familiar with new OL coach Forester
Pashos could challenge for the RT against a rookie and provide some depth

I think this OL or a similiar OL would be an improvement because they would be young players building cohesion and could grow together and improve with playing experience

But, imo it would be easier and yield greater improvement if we began fixing the OL by solidifying either OT with the 4th pick:

LT-Okung / Davis-Good
LG-Dockery-Good
C-Ed Williams-Seriveable to Good
RG-Rinehart-Serviceable to Good
RT-Heyer-Serviceable to Good

Cut/Released/Retired:

Chris Samuels
Randy Thomas
Casey Rabach
Mike Williams

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I've tried to envision a scenario where we upgrade the OL independent of the 4th pick and while i can come up with improvements its only because of how bad the OL was last year.

LT-Stephon Heyer-it would require hope that a healthy Heyer can show the promise he showed at the end of 2008 when he took over the LT spot from an injured Samuels, Heyer played the majority of the season with a knee injury that often prevented him from practicing: Ratng... Serviceable to good,

LG-Dockery-Good

C-Edwin Williams-- I think its time to find out if Edwin Williams is ready to step up, as a rookie UDFA pressed into playing out of position at RG he played well. Maybe moving him to his natural position of Center will make the middle of the OL more stout then its been with Rabach. Rabach is a decent center but he's a FA and he's not strong at the point (and Ratliff owns him twice err!!) On the flip side he could provide veteran leadership on an OL in tranisition-but on the flip side of that why wait to build the OL into a young cohesive unit ready to grow and improve togother starting with the Center?-Rating: Serviceable to good

RG-Rinehart i thought he played well after he was finally placed into the starting line-up after needless handwringing and concern. One thing i never understood was why they let Rinehart get all the reps while Randy Thomas was recovering from his injuries then broke the cohesion by putting Thomas in as the starter when he returned from his injury. But when Thomas was injured again the acted like Rinehart wasn't ready to play and tried playing Montgomery and Williams instead? And imo Rinehart played better then both those guys.

RT-2nd round pick hopefully Bruce Campbell but that's unlikely maybe... Duccase or Charles Brown lasts they could play RT until/if they show they're ready to play LT or they could stat at LT until they show they can't handle it, i would prefer they start at RT then move over, but if there is a run on OT which is likely Ducasse and Brown might not even being around when we pick in the 2nd and don't like hope as a strategy for landing OL via the draft

FA:
Tony Pashos via FA he's cheap and familiar with new OL coach Forester
Pashos could challenge for the RT against a rookie and provide some depth

I think this OL or a similiar OL would be an improvement because they would be young players building cohesion and could grow together and improve with playing experience

But, imo it would be easier and yield greater improvement if we began fixing the OL by solidifying either OT with the 4th pick:

LT-Okung / Davis-Good
LG-Dockery-Good
C-Ed Williams-Seriveable to Good
RG-Rinehart-Serviceable to Good
RT-Heyer-Serviceable to Good

Cut/Released/Retired:

Chris Samuels
Randy Thomas
Casey Rabach
Mike Williams

Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...


Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.


Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.


Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".


If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...


Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.


Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.


Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".


If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...

[Skinny Tee]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...


Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.


Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.


Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".


If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...

I agree with this post.

Anyone who is placing these guys in our starting lineup for next season is severely underestimating our need for a complete OL overhaul.

It's real, believe it, we actually need 4 completely new solutions for positions on our OL. The only remaining starter being Dockery.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Sorry, I cannot let this one go by...
Heyer is not "servicable to good". Heyer is like your emergency 3rd string QB. When he has to go into the game in the second quarter, the s*hit has already hit the fan and you are downwind.

Without the hyperbole, why isn't Heyer serviceable?
He played hurt last year but played better then the un-injured Levi Jones who some would consider serviceable.
Also, if you recall the 2009 after Samuels was hurt Heyer stepped in at LT and played well.

Edwin Williams did not "play good" at guard. He did not soil himself; he did not embarrass his family. Other than that, you would have to look really hard to come up with positive statements about his play on the line.

Again i ask you why? How would you describe Edwin Williams play at RG?
OL play is hard to evaluate.
Not hearing a players name is a good thing and when Edwin played RG his named wasn't mentioned for negatives.
And you have to remember Edwin was an UDFA playing out of postion

What was negative about Edwin Williams play?

Rinehart has never - - as in not ever - - done anything on a Sunday in Washington that would distinguish him from an off-duty piano mover in a Redskins' uniform. MAYBE he will blossom into an offensive guard someday; maybe he will go back to his home and take up needlepoint for a living. So far, the performance on the field in real NFL games on Sundays tends to make me think about the "needlepoint option".

These are cool sounding phrases and such but what specifically did he do on the field to support your opinion? The stats support that both Edwin Williams and Rinehart were 2 bright spot on our OL.

If the Redskins OL for 2010 has E. Williams, Rinehart and Heyer as starters, maybe we need to sign Barry Sanders to play QB - - because the QB will be running for his life for much of the season...

Its like you weren't even reading my post.
We can't in one offseason realistically upgrade every position on the OL.
And the interior OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped.
There are players from last year that are going to play on the OL this year.
We don't know what Edwin and Rinehart are going to become but they are the youth on this team that show some promise.
Personally i don't think you were paying close attention to which players were playing well on the OL, you just know that as unit they were bad and you're ready to damn them all.
While i would love to have an all-pro OL it takes time to build one especially when our OL has be neglected for a decade.




Instead of simply sharpshooting why don't you tell us how you would realistically approach improving the OL with and without using thr 4th pick on an OL?

[sportscurmudgeon]

30gut:

Heyer and Williams were part of an offensive line that was overmatched in just about every game. Heyer is marginal against a pass rush and is less than satisfactory as a run blocker. Did you notice how often the Skins "ran left" on short yardage situations? I'm sure opposing defensive coordinators did. The reason they "ran left" is that Heyer as the RT is not any good at run blocking. He is an emergency player not a starter.

Williams' participation in games at right guard did not show any measured improvement in pass blocking by the OL and if he ever led a big run play downfield, I must have been distracted because I did not see it. I also never saw him "pancake" any DL in front of him. Sorry, this guy has a LOT of improving to do before he qualifies as a starter on a contending team. How would I describe his play at RG? Marginal - - and I would wager that if the Redskins cut him today, his agent's telephone would not be ringing off the hook with offers from 20 other teams in the NFL. If he were really a "bright spot" on the OL, and he were released, he would be contacted by a dozen other teams within the hour...

Rinehart has been here for two seasons. He has made it to the field on a Sunday how many times? Three? Four? Five at the most. Remember, he did not play at all in his rookie season... He was hurt this year and missed 6 games due to injury but that leaves 26 games in his career and he only found the field 3-5 times. Evidently, the coaches figured that he was lacking in skills most of the time that they put together their game plans.

If Williams and Rinehart are "2 bright spots" on the Skins' OL, how come they were not in games very often? And when they were in games, how come the Skins didn't dominate people?

The fact that Williams was an UDFA playing out of position does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. The fact that he was not mentioned for any negatives does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. When you out of the lineup because the coaches think there are better players than you are, you will never be mentioned for any "negatives"; that is not a "positive".

I read your original post carefully. I too have been saying that it will be next to impossible to reconstruct the entire OL in a single season. However, I simply cannot subscribe to the notion that the "OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped." The OL did not play well for most of the season; once Samuels and Thomas were hurt, it played poorly to marginally for the rest of the season. That poor-to-marginal play is a major reason the record was 4-12.

Just when did the OL start to play well in 2009?

Game 16 the Skins lost to the Chargers' JV squad.

Game 15 the Skins lost to the Cowboys in a shutout. Guess the OL didn't have a lot of "bright spots" that day.

Game 14 the Skins lost to a mediocre Giants' team by almost 5 TDs.

Game 13 the Skins beat the Oakland Raiders by 3 TDs. If this is when the OL line play began to be a positive, it sure seems to have evaporated quickly...

[30gut]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

30gut:
Heyer and Williams were part of an offensive line that was overmatched in just about every game. Heyer is marginal against a pass rush and is less than satisfactory as a run blocker. Did you notice how often the Skins "ran left" on short yardage situations? I'm sure opposing defensive coordinators did. The reason they "ran left" is that Heyer as the RT is not any good at run blocking. He is an emergency player not a starter.

I agree and i said that Heyer was serviceable with the potential to become good. Heyer like i mentioned was playing with a bad knee, a knee injured to the point where he couldn't practice some weeks but he still went out there and battled. Logic tells me that a healthy Heyer will play better then he did last year and although he played hurt Heyer was better then Levi Jones who is considered to be a serviceable player by some (not by me).
I look back at the Heyer I saw at the end on 2008 when Heyer took over the LT spot for an injured Samuels. That is the potential i see for healthy Stephon Heyer not the injured plagued player with a different partner playing next to him almost every week. I think an underrated cause of the Redskins problems on OL was lack of cohesion itself if the same guy would have played RG the enitre season they would have been better then a different gut almost every week.

Williams' participation in games at right guard did not show any measured improvement in pass blocking by the OL and if he ever led a big run play downfield, I must have been distracted because I did not see it.

Well how are we gonna measure improvement? Because if look at the stats from football prospectus he performed better then most of the other OL on our team.
Just as you didn't see him make any pancakes i didn't see him getting pushed back like Rabach or missing many blocks. And don't forget we're talking about a UDFA rookie Center he's going to have a learning curve. Especially when he's playing a new position next to an injured RT and a less then stout Center.

I also never saw him "pancake" any DL in front of him. Sorry, this guy has a LOT of improving to do before he qualifies as a starter on a contending team. How would I describe his play at RG? Marginal

I don't think having 'pancake' blocks was a requirement for being serviceable.
And i agree that he does have a lot of improving to do before he become a starter on a contending team. But guess what? We're not a contending team.
And how different is marginal from serviceable?
How about this: Edwin was marginal talent with upside based on youth?
And i was projecting him at his natural position of Center where he would instantly be more stout then Rabach.

Rinehart has been here for two seasons. He has made it to the field on a Sunday how many times? Three? Four? Five at the most. Remember, he did not play at all in his rookie season... He was hurt this year and missed 6 games due to injury but that leaves 26 games in his career and he only found the field 3-5 times. Evidently, the coaches figured that he was lacking in skills most of the time that they put together their game plans.

How about his actual play? You mention a lot of points about his past but don't comment on how he played. And to my eye when he was in the game he played well. (And again the pro football prospectus support what my eye showed me) he was one of our better OL.

If Williams and Rinehart are "2 bright spots" on the Skins' OL, how come they were not in games very often? And when they were in games, how come the Skins didn't dominate people?

Well if you're paying attention our OL play wasn't very good Levi Jones was on of the worst LT in football and an injured Heyer was slighty better. Therein was the crux of our OL problems imo.
Imo, Rinehart and Williams were bright spots because they're our young OL and possible future and they held their own when they were pressed into duty for the 1st time.

The fact that he was not mentioned for any negatives does not mean he is a "bright spot" on the OL. When you out of the lineup because the coaches think there are better players than you are, you will never be mentioned for any "negatives"; that is not a "positive".

One of the common ways to know if an OL had at least a good game is if his name wasn't mentioned for a) getting beat b) holding or some other penalty.
So i'm gonna have to disagree when your an OL and your name isn't mentioned for something negative that in and of itself is a positive.

I read your original post carefully. I too have been saying that it will be next to impossible to reconstruct the entire OL in a single season. However, I simply cannot subscribe to the notion that the "OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped." The OL did not play well for most of the season; once Samuels and Thomas were hurt, it played poorly to marginally for the rest of the season. That poor-to-marginal play is a major reason the record was 4-12.

I agree for the most part except you're misquoting me i was refering to the interior OL not the enitre OL.

You cut out the beginning of my statement:

Originally Posted by 30gut

And the interior OL began playing well once the rotating door stopped.

And i want to mention imo a major reason for the seemingly improved play from the interior OL could certainly be given to Sherman Lewis playcalling.

I didn't think the interior OL was a big problem to begin with.
And i think we can agree that Doc wasn't a problem?
And although Rabach wasn't as stout as i would like he was much better then the OTs.
That leaves RG and once Montgomery stopped playing i thought the RG play improved.

I don't have a game-by-game breakdown of the interior OL.

But if you want which specific games i would say:
Falcons game where the backs rushed for 96 yards
Broncos backs rushed for 159 yard
Basically i thought the interior OL weeks 9-16 with the exception of the Giants game where the whole team looked disinterested other then Campbell and the Dallas game.

Look you have to build somewhere we can't have a completely new OL and you're not going to have big name players all across the OL but you have to start from somewhere and imo the place to start is the weakest spot. If these players make you feel umcomfortable its all the more reason to take an OT with the 1st so we have an honest chance at improving our OL next year. If it makes you feel better you can view our youth as the least horrible players on the OL who didn't crap themselves when their number was called.



But, believe good OL's are built over time with good coaching and playing time togother as a unit developing chemistry. Every player along the OL isn't going to be a big name player but the have to be able to play and these guys have shown signs and they're young.

HTTR!