Obama Care

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Let's be honest, whichever party is in control pushes their agenda down our throats, W and his crew mastered that move too.

They did? What in particular?

[joethiesmanfan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

They did? What in particular?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!


Tax Cuts (the creation of the biggests deficit ever)

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

They did? What in particular?

Oh I don't know things like the war, the Patriot Act, tax cuts, cutting off stem cell research...

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Oh I don't know things like the war, the Patriot Act, tax cuts, cutting off stem cell research...

Just to be 100% accurate Bush cut off federal funding for stem cell research but it was 100% legal for drug companies to do the research on their dime.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Oh I don't know things like the war, the Patriot Act, tax cuts, cutting off stem cell research...

Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
Message to the Senate of the United States

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.

[joethiesmanfan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
Message to the Senate of the United States

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.

Umm, the current crop of Republicans in Congress, ummm that dog don't hunt.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
Message to the Senate of the United States

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.

And Obama didn't try? People on the left were actually criticizing Obama for trying to be bi-partisan, especially after the Republicans clearly were unwilling to compromise whatsoever.

Also, the reason things like the Iraq War and the Patriot Act passed, was because the Republicans made it nearly impossible for politicians to oppose these things. I personally wish that the Democrats had taken a page out of the Republicans when it came to opposing the Iraq War.

Although I find it funny that you bring up the Iraq War (a war started under false pretenses like WMDs and took away from going to Afghanistan and get Bin Laden) and the Patriot Act (a legislation that made it OK to violate people's civil liberties for the sake of security), yet these things were 10 times worst than passing Health Care reform.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

And Obama didn't try? People on the left were actually criticizing Obama for trying to be bi-partisan, especially after the Republicans clearly were unwilling to compromise whatsoever.

Also, the reason things like the Iraq War and the Patriot Act passed, was because the Republicans made it nearly impossible for politicians to oppose these things. I personally wish that the Democrats had taken a page out of the Republicans when it came to opposing the Iraq War.

Although I find it funny that you bring up the Iraq War (a war started under false pretenses like WMDs and took away from going to Afghanistan and get Bin Laden) and the Patriot Act (a legislation that made it OK to violate people's civil liberties for the sake of security), yet these things were 10 times worst than passing Health Care reform.

Hell even the great Bill Clinton backed the Iraq war.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Hell even the great Bill Clinton backed the Iraq war.

The Democrats are terrible when it comes to being the opposition party. Like I said, I wish they were more like the Republicans when it comes to this.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Hell even the great Bill Clinton backed the Iraq war.

when you have false intelligence reports a lot is possible

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

when you have false intelligence reports a lot is possible

A Clinton hold-over provided the intel to Bush 2 for the Iraq War.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Although I find it funny that you bring up the Iraq War (a war started under false pretenses like WMDs and took away from going to Afghanistan and get Bin Laden) and the Patriot Act (a legislation that made it OK to violate people's civil liberties for the sake of security), yet these things were 10 times worst than passing Health Care reform.

I didn't bring up the Iraq War, Matty did and I was responding to him.

To your points: on Iraq, hindsight is 20/20. The Iraq War resolution was bi-partisan and the intel that was used as a basis to move forward with the war came from a Clinton hold-over. Bush's biggest mistake was keeping any Clintonites around.

Please give me one example of the Patriot Act being used to falsely imprison or prosecute an American citizen.

Protecting U.S. citizens from terrorist attack is far more important than this particular health reform bill.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I didn't bring up the Iraq War, Matty did and I was responding to him.

To your points: on Iraq, hindsight is 20/20. The Iraq War resolution was bi-partisan and the intel that was used as a basis to move forward with the war came from a Clinton hold-over. Bush's biggest mistake was keeping any Clintonites around.

Please give me one example of the Patriot Act being used to falsely imprison or prosecute an American citizen.

Protecting U.S. citizens from terrorist attack is far more important than this particular health reform bill.

I don't have as radical negative opinion of the Patriot Act as some people on the left do. My point is that some people act like this Health Care reform is the worst thing in the world and that the world itself is going to end because of it. To me, making the decision to go to war with Iraq with questionable purposes, without an exit strategy, and without an end, is far worst than this Health Care bill.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

To me, making the decision to go to war with Iraq with questionable purposes, without an exit strategy, and without an end, is far worst than this Health Care bill.

In terms of immediate loss of U.S. life the Iraq War decision is certainly worse. However how many lives did we save in the process, be they U.S., Iraqi, or possibly other nations that could've been a victim of terrorism sponsored or funded by Saddam or people murdered directly by Saddam and his regime. The Kurds are certainly glad we overthrew Saddam.

In terms of money, this health care bill is likely to be far worse than expenditures on the Iraq War in overall burden to the National Debt.

I agree with you that the country is certainly not going into a revolution or the world stop spinning on it's axis because of this law. However, with this new law we will see a further erosion in personal freedoms/personal choice, further intrusion into the private secor by the federal government, further expansion of the federal government's power over the states, increased taxes and an increase in the National Debt. Providing health coverage for the uninsured, working through the pre-existing conditions issues, and allowing more competition for health coverage could've been done in a different way.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Not to veer too far off course here but most of these were passed with bi-partisan approval:

Iraq War Resolution passed House 297-133 (82 Dems voted Yes), Senate 77-23 (29 Dems voted Yes)

The Patriot Act passed by wide margins in both House & Senate. In 2005 it was Re-Authorized by the House 257-171 and the Seante 89-10

The 2001 tax cuts we passed with bi-partisan support. 2003 was close to party line vote (no reconciliation though).

Stem Cell Research was vetoed twice (Bush only vetoed four bills total). Here's the letter he sent to the Senate:
Message to the Senate of the United States

Let's not compare what Bush did in office to what Obama is doing. Bush did more for many liberal causes and expansion of government than Bill Clinton ever did. Bush 1 and Reagan both worked across the aisle.

Obama and the left in Congress are pushing through legislation that 60% of the country is vehemently against.

You can't fault Obama for trying to be bi-partisan. Lord knows he did try at every step. Ultimately the fact that it wasn't can't be blamed solely on Obama. In the face of all the mischaracterization and all the b.s. I'm suprised he didn't give up sooner.

BTW, did you see the new USA Today poll? Or that pre-vote CNN poll (43% oppose reform because it's too liberal, 13% oppose it because it is not liberal enough and 39% support it)? Or the WSJ/NBC poll released last weekend (36% think it's a good idea while 48% don't...46% of those people also think that it's better to pass ObamaCare where as 45% don't it is)?