Absolutely Stunned.

skinsguy · 03-09-2005, 11:33 AM

Finally, no more kid in a candy store mentality!! We are finally seeing how a true front office should be ran in the off season! I hate to see Smoot go, but ya know, the world doesn't end without him. I hate to see Pierce go, but again, we can move along without him!

I just can't seem to understand this:Alot of us here complain about how we throw money around at big name players, and then the off-season we don't do that, the same people complain about our new found frugal approach to the office season. What's more is, alot of people are blaming the front office and Joe Gibbs for the Coles situation. That situation was completely on LC. He wanted out and I am sorry, but just because the offense isn't built exactly the way he wanted it doesn't give him a free pass to want out after one season in this system and two seasons with the team. Has anybody, including Coles realized that his injured toe hendered his full potiential? I will say that Coles is probably an all-around better receiver than Moss WHEN he is healthy. However, I would rather take a healthy Moss over an unhealthy Coles. Would you guys rather us not get anything out of the Coles situation? I heard on the television the other day that what we should have done was force Coles to stay with the team and if he didn't want to play, deactivate him. How would that be a better situation for us??? We would be without a receiver!! Maybe it would be better on the cap situation, but ya know, this wasn't our fault! If Coles decided to keep his mouth shut and play next season, then we wouldn't have been in that situation. With the exception of Brunell, look at what we have gotten since Gibbs has arrived! How can we say this team is taking a step back??? Haven't we learned from that 2000 season (or was it 2001?)

I say hurray for us "losing" in March so we can look forward to winning in September, October, November, December, and hopefully January!

sportscurmudgeon · 03-09-2005, 12:11 PM

Matty:

As usual, you are a voice of reason and logic here on the board. The 2005 season is not over and done with already; neither is it one in which a Super Bowl appearance would be expected.

Schneed10:

You pointed out "bad things" that hapened in this offseason and all of them are facts; there's no "ifs" or "maybes" associated with them.

Then you listed a whole menu of great things that have happened to the Skins recently - - without noting the "ifs" and "maybes". So let me try to do that for you:

Good things about this year:

- The same D coordinator as last year (hasn't happened in a long ass time).

Very true regarding the continuity from year to year. Of course this is only a real blessing if all the players who return this year will play up to - or better than - the level they played at last year AND the subs stepping in for Pierce and Smoot play as well or better. Gregg Williams made ZERO tackles last year and he will make ZERO tackles this year.

- Ramsey starting for a full season, instead of for only 7 games.

Ramesy will start in September. Health and winning games will determine if he starts for a full season.

- A team atmosphere, getting rid of the players who don't want to be here.

Very dangerous to list this as a positive. Who knew that Coles would be one of the players to "ask out"? If that is the atmosphere here, what happens next January if Arrinigton and Portis decide to get pissy and want to leave? Just cut 'em and hope they get injured for their new teams because all we want here are "true Redskins"? Be careful what you wish for...

- An O-line with stability, in the same scheme as last year (they'll jell faster this year).

They damned well better jell faster than last year because if they don't Ramsey will not last the year - see point above about him needing to maintain his health to play a full season. You are also assuming that no one on the O-Line gets injured during the year AND that Dockery actually shows to be a productive OL at the NFL level. Both could happen but neither is a 100% lead-pipe certainty.

- More draft picks than last year.

Oh good. We get to pick up the new versions of Rod Gardner and Andre Johnson this year. That'll solidify things for years to come...

- Ramsey growing in the offense.

You've assumed here that you have not already seen the limits of Patrick Ramsey's productivity. I hope you're right, and I know that he has some impressive physical skills - not including any that have to do with his legs and feet! - but so far he hasn't shown them to be enough to do what is REALLY important in the NFL. What is REALLY important is for a good QB to win more games than he loses. Stats are for losers. The only stat people quote about Tom Brady is "three".

- Healthy Jansen.

99% chance you're right on here...

- Healthy Lavar.

I'm not nearly as certain with this one as you are.

- Casey Rabach

Better than Cory Ramer or Lenny Friedman or any of the other jamokes who have played center here for the past few years. But don't get carried away. He ain't going to Canton when his playing days are over unless it's to take his kids to see the NFL Hall of Fame and he buys a family day pass.

- David Patten

Clearly an upgrade over Rod Gardner as the #2 WR. Clearly an upgrade over an INJURED Lavernaeus Coles as a #1 WR. Clearly not a premiere WR in the NFL. If this is your lead pony in a passing attack, you'll be reminded of the Eagles several years ago when their lead pony was James Thrash.

- Santana Moss

I like Moss. I don't like that he has a reputation of not wanting to go over the middle. Maybe that will change here because he won't have to play against Sean Taylor and be terrified about what Taylor might do to him. Oh wait, that's not a good argument because he didn't have to play against Taylor much for the last few seasons either... And Moss has the negotiation leverage with Danny Boy for a contract so get set for that tussle. And if that tussle goes poorly, maybe Moss will be part of that Redskins team atmosphere where you get rid of guys who don't want to be here?

- A pledge by Gibbs to go deep and use the speed he just acquired at WR.

If that OL doesn not perform much better than last year, you will leave a plunger-footed Patrick Ramesy back there waiting to "go deep". Do that too many times and you will witness the rebirth of Mark Brunell under center for your Washington Redskins.

Just keepin' it real...

SkinsRock · 03-09-2005, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

- David Patten

Clearly an upgrade over Rod Gardner as the #2 WR. Clearly an upgrade over an INJURED Lavernaeus Coles as a #1 WR. Clearly not a premiere WR in the NFL. If this is your lead pony in a passing attack, you'll be reminded of the Eagles several years ago when their lead pony was James Thrash.

SC- Some very good points, but I have one question: Just how good did the Eagles do with Thrash as their lead pony? Oh yeah, the NFC runner-ups! I know, he most definitely was not the sole reason they got there, but it shows it can be done (success without a true #1 WR)....and I'm sure many Skins fans would love the Redskins to be in that position.

Tahoe Skin · 03-09-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinsRock

SC- Some very good points, but I have one question: Just how good did the Eagles do with Thrash as their lead pony? Oh yeah, the NFC runner-ups! I know, he most definitely was not the sole reason they got there, but it shows it can be done (success without a true #1 WR)....and I'm sure many Skins fans would love the Redskins to be in that position.

Let's not worry too much about who we have as a receiver. We have plenty of speed, talent and athleticism at that position. Once we benched Brunell and Ramsey got going, I think the real problem was our inability to give Patrick time to throw.

MTK · 03-09-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tahoe Skin

Let's not worry too much about who we have as a receiver. We have plenty of speed, talent and athleticism at that position. Once we benched Brunell and Ramsey got going, I think the real problem was our inability to give Patrick time to throw.

Very true.

The line and Ramsey's inexperience in the system and in general played a big part in the lack of an effective passing game. Hopefully both of those areas will improve this year along with a more aggressive downfield attack from Gibbs.

That Guy · 03-09-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkinsRock

SC- Some very good points, but I have one question: Just how good did the Eagles do with Thrash as their lead pony? Oh yeah, the NFC runner-ups! I know, he most definitely was not the sole reason they got there, but it shows it can be done (success without a true #1 WR)....and I'm sure many Skins fans would love the Redskins to be in that position.

they have mcnabb though to make up for it.

joecrisp · 03-09-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

they have mcnabb though to make up for it.

True, but the Eagles didn't have a Clinton Portis, either. They had the three-headed monster of Staley, Westbrook and Buckhalter-- but none of those guys inspired defenses to put 8 men in the box with any regularity. Staley and Buckhalter had one or two good rushing games a year, and Westbrook has been more or less a wide receiver out of the backfield. It's not like the Eagles were loaded on offense prior to acquiring Terrell Owens last season. Pre-T.O., McNabb was the only player on that offense that really made defensive coordinators wake up in cold sweats.

The Skins may not have Coles and Gardner, but look at how splendid this offense was with those two players as the top wideouts. People have been crying for the Skins to get rid of Gardner for years-- with good reason, and Coles is certainly not the weapon he used to be. The fact is, this offense couldn't get much worse than it was last season. Patten, while unheralded, is a reliable receiver who will actually catch passes that hit him in the hands, and Moss, while not the tough-guy that Coles was, will provide the deep threat that Coles can no longer claim to be. This offense, believe it or not, tried to go deep last season. The reason there weren't many long completions is that the receivers struggled to get open deep, and the quarterbacks were forced to go to their shorter options.

With Moss and Patten, that may change. With Coles and Gardner, I doubt it would have improved.

SkinsRock · 03-09-2005, 01:05 PM

The past 5 off-seasons:

2000: Bought a bunch of big names and "won the off-season", which turned a 10-6 playoff team into an 8-8 team with an interim coach.
2001: New coach and FO structure got rid of or lost a lot of players. Started out horrible at 0-5 and almost had a mutiny, but turned it around to end up 8-8.
2002: Another new coaching staff and back to the old FO structure, made a couple splashes on D, but went for "cheap and available" players on O, and slipped to 7-9.
2003: Same HC, but lost a top DC, Went after talented, younger players, but overpaid to get some of them...still made a big splash. Slipped to 5-11.
2004: New HOF coach and very experienced staff. Went after a couple big name players and a few up-and-comers, lost a pro bowl CB. HC seemed to take a while to get back in the swing of things, but the D ruled under another top DC. Went 6-10.

So the best seasons compared to the previous were the Marty year and last year....and considering that Marty's team arguably had a lot less talent than the 2000 team, so I'd say that was the best improvement. So I'm VERY curious to see the 2005 team without making a big splash in FA for the first time since 2001.
Yeah it hurt losing Pierce and Smoot, but as someone else said, EVERY team loses good players. That's the nature of how it is set up. To me Smoot leaving hurts a little more, not necessarily for his play, but he just seemed like a true Redskin....put it like this: If Lavar is the "face" of the Redskins (player-wise...overall it has to be Gibbs), Smoot was most definitely the "voice".

03-09-2005, 01:05 PM	#8
SkinsRock Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Crofton, MD Age: 56 Posts: 907	Re: Absolutely Stunned. The past 5 off-seasons: 2000: Bought a bunch of big names and "won the off-season", which turned a 10-6 playoff team into an 8-8 team with an interim coach. 2001: New coach and FO structure got rid of or lost a lot of players. Started out horrible at 0-5 and almost had a mutiny, but turned it around to end up 8-8. 2002: Another new coaching staff and back to the old FO structure, made a couple splashes on D, but went for "cheap and available" players on O, and slipped to 7-9. 2003: Same HC, but lost a top DC, Went after talented, younger players, but overpaid to get some of them...still made a big splash. Slipped to 5-11. 2004: New HOF coach and very experienced staff. Went after a couple big name players and a few up-and-comers, lost a pro bowl CB. HC seemed to take a while to get back in the swing of things, but the D ruled under another top DC. Went 6-10. So the best seasons compared to the previous were the Marty year and last year....and considering that Marty's team arguably had a lot less talent than the 2000 team, so I'd say that was the best improvement. So I'm VERY curious to see the 2005 team without making a big splash in FA for the first time since 2001. Yeah it hurt losing Pierce and Smoot, but as someone else said, EVERY team loses good players. That's the nature of how it is set up. To me Smoot leaving hurts a little more, not necessarily for his play, but he just seemed like a true Redskin....put it like this: If Lavar is the "face" of the Redskins (player-wise...overall it has to be Gibbs), Smoot was most definitely the "voice".

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03-09-2005, 11:33 AM	#1
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 6,766	Re: Absolutely Stunned. Finally, no more kid in a candy store mentality!! We are finally seeing how a true front office should be ran in the off season! I hate to see Smoot go, but ya know, the world doesn't end without him. I hate to see Pierce go, but again, we can move along without him! I just can't seem to understand this:Alot of us here complain about how we throw money around at big name players, and then the off-season we don't do that, the same people complain about our new found frugal approach to the office season. What's more is, alot of people are blaming the front office and Joe Gibbs for the Coles situation. That situation was completely on LC. He wanted out and I am sorry, but just because the offense isn't built exactly the way he wanted it doesn't give him a free pass to want out after one season in this system and two seasons with the team. Has anybody, including Coles realized that his injured toe hendered his full potiential? I will say that Coles is probably an all-around better receiver than Moss WHEN he is healthy. However, I would rather take a healthy Moss over an unhealthy Coles. Would you guys rather us not get anything out of the Coles situation? I heard on the television the other day that what we should have done was force Coles to stay with the team and if he didn't want to play, deactivate him. How would that be a better situation for us??? We would be without a receiver!! Maybe it would be better on the cap situation, but ya know, this wasn't our fault! If Coles decided to keep his mouth shut and play next season, then we wouldn't have been in that situation. With the exception of Brunell, look at what we have gotten since Gibbs has arrived! How can we say this team is taking a step back??? Haven't we learned from that 2000 season (or was it 2001?) I say hurray for us "losing" in March so we can look forward to winning in September, October, November, December, and hopefully January! __________________ "Fire Up That Diesel!"

03-09-2005, 12:11 PM	#2
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	Re: Absolutely Stunned. Matty: As usual, you are a voice of reason and logic here on the board. The 2005 season is not over and done with already; neither is it one in which a Super Bowl appearance would be expected. Schneed10: You pointed out "bad things" that hapened in this offseason and all of them are facts; there's no "ifs" or "maybes" associated with them. Then you listed a whole menu of great things that have happened to the Skins recently - - without noting the "ifs" and "maybes". So let me try to do that for you: Good things about this year: - The same D coordinator as last year (hasn't happened in a long ass time). Very true regarding the continuity from year to year. Of course this is only a real blessing if all the players who return this year will play up to - or better than - the level they played at last year AND the subs stepping in for Pierce and Smoot play as well or better. Gregg Williams made ZERO tackles last year and he will make ZERO tackles this year. - Ramsey starting for a full season, instead of for only 7 games. Ramesy will start in September. Health and winning games will determine if he starts for a full season. - A team atmosphere, getting rid of the players who don't want to be here. Very dangerous to list this as a positive. Who knew that Coles would be one of the players to "ask out"? If that is the atmosphere here, what happens next January if Arrinigton and Portis decide to get pissy and want to leave? Just cut 'em and hope they get injured for their new teams because all we want here are "true Redskins"? Be careful what you wish for... - An O-line with stability, in the same scheme as last year (they'll jell faster this year). They damned well better jell faster than last year because if they don't Ramsey will not last the year - see point above about him needing to maintain his health to play a full season. You are also assuming that no one on the O-Line gets injured during the year AND that Dockery actually shows to be a productive OL at the NFL level. Both could happen but neither is a 100% lead-pipe certainty. - More draft picks than last year. Oh good. We get to pick up the new versions of Rod Gardner and Andre Johnson this year. That'll solidify things for years to come... - Ramsey growing in the offense. You've assumed here that you have not already seen the limits of Patrick Ramsey's productivity. I hope you're right, and I know that he has some impressive physical skills - not including any that have to do with his legs and feet! - but so far he hasn't shown them to be enough to do what is REALLY important in the NFL. What is REALLY important is for a good QB to win more games than he loses. Stats are for losers. The only stat people quote about Tom Brady is "three". - Healthy Jansen. 99% chance you're right on here... - Healthy Lavar. I'm not nearly as certain with this one as you are. - Casey Rabach Better than Cory Ramer or Lenny Friedman or any of the other jamokes who have played center here for the past few years. But don't get carried away. He ain't going to Canton when his playing days are over unless it's to take his kids to see the NFL Hall of Fame and he buys a family day pass. - David Patten Clearly an upgrade over Rod Gardner as the #2 WR. Clearly an upgrade over an INJURED Lavernaeus Coles as a #1 WR. Clearly not a premiere WR in the NFL. If this is your lead pony in a passing attack, you'll be reminded of the Eagles several years ago when their lead pony was James Thrash. - Santana Moss I like Moss. I don't like that he has a reputation of not wanting to go over the middle. Maybe that will change here because he won't have to play against Sean Taylor and be terrified about what Taylor might do to him. Oh wait, that's not a good argument because he didn't have to play against Taylor much for the last few seasons either... And Moss has the negotiation leverage with Danny Boy for a contract so get set for that tussle. And if that tussle goes poorly, maybe Moss will be part of that Redskins team atmosphere where you get rid of guys who don't want to be here? - A pledge by Gibbs to go deep and use the speed he just acquired at WR. If that OL doesn not perform much better than last year, you will leave a plunger-footed Patrick Ramesy back there waiting to "go deep". Do that too many times and you will witness the rebirth of Mark Brunell under center for your Washington Redskins. Just keepin' it real... __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

Absolutely Stunned.

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