For JTF's Reading Pleasure: "What is the Tea Party"

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by saden1

I don't know why that's sad, we should celebrate

It's sad because what he's saying is, we have a shitty government because the general populace is a bunch of schmucks!

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

It's sad because what he's saying is, we have a shitty government because the general populace is a bunch of schmucks!

Our govt. has it's share of issues - no doubt. It is, however, far from shitty. Somalia, Zimbabwe, Chad, Sudan - now that's shitty (or non-existent) government.

You would probably do well there. It's all about who has the biggest gun and not seeing civilization as anything more than your local tribe/clan/(insert hunter-gatherer grouping of choice).

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Our govt. has it's share of issues - no doubt. It is, however, far from shitty. Somalia, Zimbabwe, Chad, Sudan - now that's shitty (or non-existent) government.

You would probably do well there. It's all about who has the biggest gun and not seeing civilization as anything more than your local tribe/clan/(insert hunter-gatherer grouping of choice).

That's like saying, eating gritts everyday sucks but at least it's not sawdust.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

That's like saying, eating gritts everyday sucks but at least it's not sawdust.

1. Ain't nothing wrong with a daily plate o' grits.

2. Okay then - "shitty" compared to what? "shitty" compared to a perfect world in which we all agree on everything? "Shitty" compared to a govt. of a country with a population of 5,000,000 in which approximately only 20-30% of that population can actually vote? "Shitty" compared to Denmark?

The federal, state, and local system all have their flaws all overlap and all could be much better. That's what happens when 300 million, 43 million (population of California), and 400K (Oakland) or so people all have a voice in how the union, the state and the city will be governed.

Amazingly, not everyone agrees with one another.

[budw38]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Our govt. has it's share of issues - no doubt. It is, however, far from shitty. Somalia, Zimbabwe, Chad, Sudan - now that's shitty (or non-existent) government.

You would probably do well there. It's all about who has the biggest gun and not seeing civilization as anything more than your local tribe/clan/(insert hunter-gatherer grouping of choice).

Our gov't fails an awful lot , I think we are great because of the declerations , Bill of Rights , laws that were written years ago , much more than todays idiots . Our Corporations , small businesses not our elected officials turn our wheels and drive our jobs / economy , while Washington has continued to ring up debt and deficits . When we spend < local > 5 million dollars for a 70 ft stretch of highway , or use 2 million more on a 60 ft long < 4 ft. tall > bridge ... and it take over half a year ... thats bad . I agree that we are much better off here < I have never left our borders , nor will I > Washington needs to improve a great deal ... as they should do what is best for we the people .

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by budw38

Our gov't fails an awful lot , I think we are great because of the declerations , Bill of Rights , laws that were written years ago , much more than todays idiots . Our Corporations , small businesses not our elected officials turn our wheels and drive our jobs / economy , while Washington has continued to ring up debt and deficits . When we spend < local > 5 million dollars for a 70 ft stretch of highway , or use 2 million more on a 60 ft long < 4 ft. tall > bridge ... and it take over half a year ... thats bad . I agree that we are much better off here < I have never left our borders , nor will I > Washington needs to improve a great deal ... as they should do what is best for we the people .

Okay, here is the list of countries with poplations of greater than 150 million:

1 China (1,338,760,000)
2 India (1,183,669,000)
3 United States (309,786,000)
4 Indonesia (234,181,400)
5 Brazil (193,253,000)
6 Pakistan (170,064,500)
7 Bangladesh (164,425,000)
8 Nigeria (158,259,000)

Which of these is doing a better job than us in terms of governing a huge mass of people (actually wayyy beyond huge)?

Yup. Our founding documents were inspired - but we are no longer an 18th century minor nation in a pre-industrialized world.

With 300 million people and multiple layers of government striving to both keep those 300 million people unified, protect their wide ranging iintereste, while at the same time give them a voice in federal and local govt. -- GUESS WHAT?? Waste & corruption happen. It is not the apocalypse, it is not the end of the govt., it is not a conspiracy - it just is. And we 300 million people muddle along trying to keep it together and not blow ourselves apart by finding inspiration in those timeless founding documents that were written by a bunch of (very smart) privileged white men for the benefit of privileged white men.


Did I mention there are 300 million of us?

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Okay, here is the list of countries with poplations of greater than 150 million:

1 China (1,338,760,000)
2 India (1,183,669,000)
3 United States (309,786,000)
4 Indonesia (234,181,400)
5 Brazil (193,253,000)
6 Pakistan (170,064,500)
7 Bangladesh (164,425,000)
8 Nigeria (158,259,000)

Which of these is doing a better job than us in terms of governing a huge mass of people (actually wayyy beyond huge)?

Yup. Our founding documents were inspired - but we are no longer an 18th century minor nation in a pre-industrialized world.

With 300 million people and multiple layers of government striving to both keep those 300 million people unified, protect their wide ranging iintereste, while at the same time give them a voice in federal and local govt. -- GUESS WHAT?? Waste & corruption happen. It is not the apocalypse, it is not the end of the govt., it is not a conspiracy - it just is. And we 300 million people muddle along trying to keep it together and not blow ourselves apart by finding inspiration in those timeless founding documents that were written by a bunch of (very smart) privileged white men for the benefit of privileged white men.


Did I mention there are 300 million of us?

Did you forget those enlightened Red bastards harvest convincts for their organs? Have you forgotten that China is a huge sweat shop with concentration camp labor? This is who you want to be like? They're doing a better job? Mao liquidated millions of people in the cultural revolution. The only thing they're doing better than us is accepting Western industry into their country because American politicians have sold out the American people.

The last time I was on an airplane I saw huge portions of land that no one has ever touched. There's plenty of room and resources for everyone.

The Constitution is one of the best documents ever written. Who cares if it was written by white men, so was the Magna Carta. You mention India, who's Constitution do you think they copied when they kicked out the British?

So what if it was written a long time ago. Christ was crucified a long time ago but his message is as true today as it was back then. Buddha lived a long time ago, so did Confucius. But I guess their message isn't relevant without a gas turbine or an internal combustible engine.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

Did you forget those enlightened Red bastards harvest convincts for their organs? Have you forgotten that China is a huge sweat shop with concentration camp labor? This is who you want to be like? They're doing a better job? Mao liquidated millions of people in the cultural revolution. The only thing they're doing better than us is accepting Western industry into their country because American politicians have sold out the American people.

The last time I was on an airplane I saw huge portions of land that no one has ever touched. There's plenty of room and resources for everyone.

Wow. Could you miss the point even further?? It's like you are standing in front of one of those mall maps that says "The Point is Here" and your looking for it in the map of the basement garage. (Don't force me to bring on the "obtuse"!).

I guess you didn't understand my rhetorical question - "You think anyone will be saying 'If only this were Bangladesh'?" - to mean that, no matter how bad it gets in Oakland, no Oaklandian will be dreaming of a better life in Bangladesh. I also assumed you understood that I think the US is governing itself better than any of the listed countries - since that would be consistent with my previous arguments.

Sorry, I'll spell it out for the rhetorically challanged.

In my humble opinion, flawed though it may be in practice, the United States system of government as set forth in the Constitution and Bill of Rights (with its federalism and the devolution of power to the vaious states) is far and away the best system for governing large populations. Further, as it is applied today, even with only remnants of the original federalistic system in place, it is - far, far, far and away - the best system currently governing a population of more than 150 million people.

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

The Constitution is one of the best documents ever written. Who cares if it was written by white men, so was the Magna Carta. You mention India, who's Constitution do you think they copied when they kicked out the British?

So what if it was written a long time ago. Christ was crucified a long time ago but his message is as true today as it was back then. Buddha lived a long time ago, so did Confucius. But I guess their message isn't relevant without a gas turbine or an internal combustible engine.

Again, I apologize for the subtle rhetoric. I thought my deep admiration for the Declaration, Constitution and Bill of Rights was apparent by indicating that, even though they were written by rich white men for rich white men, - over 200 hundred years later- a population of 300 million people with vastly disparate interests and with technological advances beyond the imagination of the Founding Fathers could still find unifying, binding principles that are relevant to them today "by finding inspiration in those timeless founding documents."

But then - I forgot I am talkng to someone who thinks capping a deep sea oil well is like changing a pipe in your house. Sure the principles are the same, it's just that the implementation may require a different level of expertise or specialised equipment.

Actually, your prior simplistic approach to the BP situation is an excellent analogy of the fundamental flaw in your political theory. The practical application of the timeless principles set forth in our brilliant founding documents (Got it? I think they are good!) may differ when they are applied to a population of 300 million people that is the most technologically advanced society the world has ever known and who all have a voice in the government as opposed to their application to a pre-industrial population of 5 million where the government was chosen by a minority of the population all of whom had basically similar interests.