DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

Muslims are indifferent to this pastor's well being because what he proposes to do is beyond vile (who in here cares what happens to Fred Phelps?). There are idiots out there talking about how they would respond to this pastor's action by attacking and Americans/Christians and I don't see Muslims being indifferent to this.

There will be one nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act against this pastor. Best of luck to the pastor.

In light of Iraq's top shiite cleric "urging restraint" by all Muslims, I suggest it is not just the pastor who need fear from a "nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act."

[over the mountain]

well said joe.

[JoeRedskin]

From the article:

Iraq's top Shiite Muslim leader has condemned plans by a pastor in the United States to burn copies of the Koran, but urged Muslims not to be provoked and called for tolerance of Christians.

Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, in a statement released Thursday night, said: 'While we denounce the assault on the Holy Koran and stress the importance of not letting this occur, we urge Muslims, where ever they are, to exercise the utmost restraint.'

‘Do not do what would hurt the followers of the church,' he said.

Al-Sistani said the call by Florida pastor Terry Jones for the Koran-burning on the anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the US, was not compatible with the task of religious leaders to 'promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence.'

This is exactly what I mean by a tolerant shrug. Sorry, he is not condemning violent reactions. Rather, he “urges” Muslims to exercise “restraint”. Is the restraint “urged” because it is wrong to do violence? No, it is urged so as to not “hurt the followers” of Islam. What about urging restraint because it is wrong to do harm to others who don’t believe as you do? What about condemning violent responses to hateful speech as being antithetical to the word of Allah, the teachings of Mohammend and “not compatible with the task of religious leaders to “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”?

He does not defend the right of people to speak their mind. Instead, he “stress[es] the importance of not letting this [burning] occur.” If DWOC wants to legally make his statement how can he be prevented except by violence? By changing the fundamental constitutional guarantees of our country?

Where is the unequivocal condemnation of violence? Where is the “violence in response to speech is sinful”?

This statement by “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader” is exactly the type of reaction that I am talking about. Tell the faithful it is wrong and evil to kill in response hatred. Tell them this idiot has the right to make his own choices about Allah. Tell them that any one who encourages them to harm others in response to this action is working against the will Allah. Don’t simply "urge restraint" because a violent response might make Islam look bad.

In order to truly “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”, I would hope for more from “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader”.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

From the article:


This is exactly what I mean by a tolerant shrug. Sorry, he is not condemning violent reactions. Rather, he “urges” Muslims to exercise “restraint”. Is the restraint “urged” because it is wrong to do violence? No, it is urged so as to not “hurt the followers” of Islam. What about urging restraint because it is wrong to do harm to others who don’t believe as you do? What about condemning violent responses to hateful speech as being antithetical to the word of Allah, the teachings of Mohammend and “not compatible with the task of religious leaders to “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”?

He does not defend the right of people to speak their mind. Instead, he “stress[es] the importance of not letting this [burning] occur.” If DWOC wants to legally make his statement how can he be prevented except by violence? By changing the fundamental constitutional guarantees of our country?

Where is the unequivocal condemnation of violence? Where is the “violence in response to speech is sinful”?

This statement by “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader” is exactly the type of reaction that I am talking about. Tell the faithful it is wrong and evil to kill in response hatred. Tell them this idiot has the right to make his own choices about Allah. Tell them that any one who encourages them to harm others in response to this action is working against the will Allah. Don’t simply "urge restraint" because a violent response might make Islam look bad.

In order to truly “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”, I would hope for more from “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader”.

I feel like we read the same article....yet we didn't read the same article...I will now print out your posts and torch them

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I feel like we read the same article....yet we didn't read the same article...I will now print out your posts and torch them

I am sure you are not alone in that sentiment.

[CRedskinsRule]

What you want, can't and won't happen Joe. And is one reason why the Jewish/Muslim war will not be ended by human eyes. In the old Testament of the Bible, God tells the Israelites to go into a land and destroy all remnants of former gods, idols etc. This isn't a one time exclusive thing, this is a trait of God. It is the same trait that Muslims claim under Sharia Law, when the Taliban destroyed many ancient Buddhists.

When God is seen as a jealous God, then any number of atrocities may be done in his name. Alot of Christians wave off this part of God, and many cynics of God point to the Christians ignoring this side as "proof" of hypocrisy. However each Christian person deals with this aspect of God, it is certainly that devout followers of the Jewish or Muslim Holy Scriptures can not ever give more than even a tolerant shrug, and in the most devout communities a tolerant shrug can be seen as blasphemy against the Holy One.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

One would hope people would turn the other cheek and take the non-violent approach but the sad truth is that passages in holly books are in the eye of the beholder whether they be pacifist or antagonistic.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

What you want, can't and won't happen Joe. And is one reason why the Jewish/Muslim war will not be ended by human eyes. In the old Testament of the Bible, God tells the Israelites to go into a land and destroy all remnants of former gods, idols etc. This isn't a one time exclusive thing, this is a trait of God. It is the same trait that Muslims claim under Sharia Law, when the Taliban destroyed many ancient Buddhists.

When God is seen as a jealous God, then any number of atrocities may be done in his name. Alot of Christians wave off this part of God, and many cynics of God point to the Christians ignoring this side as "proof" of hypocrisy. However each Christian person deals with this aspect of God, it is certainly that devout followers of the Jewish or Muslim Holy Scriptures can not ever give more than even a tolerant shrug, and in the most devout communities a tolerant shrug can be seen as blasphemy against the Holy One.

And this is what causes people like BleedBurgandy to dismiss all religion as equivalent of unicorns and lunacy – human misuse of revealed wisdom. It is also why I am so angered by leading Islamic clerics failure to loudly, proudly and unequivocally condemn vengeful actions.

saden - Do you believe that when read as a whole and working to resolve apparently conflicting out of context statements within the Qu’ran about vengeance, violence and Allah’s mercy through critical study, that any truly thoughtful, rational Muslim could believe that Allah as revealed in the Qu’ran condones vengeful actions against, or the murder of, those who simply do not believe in the Qu’ran’s teachings?

CRR – Similarly, do you believe that a similar study of the Talmud, the whole Talmud, would lead any truly thoughtful, rational Jew to believe that the Judaic God seeks the death and destruction of all non-Jews?

All I ask is for religious leaders, on all sides, is to seek the actual wisdom revealed in their Holy Scriptures – all of it, not just the parts they like - and, accordingly, teach their flock to forego vengeance, to condemn violence and to seek Truth.

Yes. It is a utopian vision but, dammit, the Truth Is Out There!

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

And this is what causes people like BleedBurgandy to dismiss all religion as equivalent of unicorns and lunacy – human misuse of revealed wisdom. It is also why I am so angered by leading Islamic clerics failure to loudly, proudly and unequivocally condemn vengeful actions.

saden - Do you believe that when read as a whole and working to resolve apparently conflicting out of context statements within the Qu’ran about vengeance, violence and Allah’s mercy through critical study, that any truly thoughtful, rational Muslim could believe that Allah as revealed in the Qu’ran condones vengeful actions against, or the murder of, those who simply do not believe in the Qu’ran’s teachings?

CRR – Similarly, do you believe that a similar study of the Talmud, the whole Talmud, would lead any truly thoughtful, rational Jew to believe that the Judaic God seeks the death and destruction of all non-Jews?

All I ask is for religious leaders, on all sides, is to seek the actual wisdom revealed in their Holy Scriptures – all of it, not just the parts they like - and, accordingly, teach their flock to forego vengeance, to condemn violence and to seek Truth.

Yes. It is a utopian vision but, dammit, the Truth Is Out There!

No but then again I'm a Spinozist.

[CRedskinsRule]

Interesting read if you want:
Dilling: IV. Exploitation of Non-Jews

[firstdown]

Some Muslims are crying over this like a bunch of babies but dance in the street when the twin towers fall and I'm suppose to care about their feelings. I mean come on they freak all out about the Koran but they seem to shrug off all the killing that goes in its name. I'm not talking about American deaths I'm talking about the killing of other muslims that we see in the news about every day. Lets not even get into how they treat women. I wonder how many will be celebrating tomorrow

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Didn't want to start a new thread on this, but pretty outrageous stuff here. I would assume there would've been a massive outrage in the mainstream media if this had been a Christian church or Jewish synagogue who brought in local middle schoolers, told them outright historical lies, had some of the kids join in prayers, while excluding girls and the women teachers from the area.

YouTube - Wellesley, Massachusetts Public School...

[724Skinsfan]

Does anybody else keep misreading the thread title as ".....Burn a Korean Day"?

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

Does anybody else keep misreading the thread title as ".....Burn a Korean Day"?

I better go grab me a Korean! Corner store, here I come!

[tryfuhl]

Hurry up and buy!

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

Hurry up and buy!

Hey look if you want to go and purchase a Koran and burn it fine but you could cut out the middle man by simply burning your money. And.... if burning your money is not an issue for you fine but you could easily cut yourself out of that and not have to worry about how to get it lit, or all the ash, simply send it all to me. I promise I'll take care of it so you won't have to figure out how to set it afire or clean up all that ash that would look and smell horrible. Just let me know if I can be of help and I'll send my address.