Ongoing CBA discussions

[redskins5044]

Name me a company where the the employees get more than a 50% of the companies profit? not many.

All of this is a joke to me, millionaires suing billionaires. I see where Manning, Brady and Brees are suing the NFL. Shouldn't the players that should be suing the ones who dont get the big contracts. Cry me a River NFL players. How about you save your money and have a good investment plan. I am sick of hearing that you players but your body on the line and take all the risk. We have members of the U.S. military that put there life on the lines and put there bodies on the line.

The NFL minimum in 2010 was 355,000. Most people would love to make that much in 7 years let alone 1 year as a bench warmer.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by redskins5044

Name me a company where the the employees get more than a 50% of the companies profit? not many.

All of this is a joke to me, millionaires suing billionaires. I see where Manning, Brady and Brees are suing the NFL. Shouldn't the players that should be suing the ones who dont get the big contracts. Cry me a River NFL players. How about you save your money and have a good investment plan. I am sick of hearing that you players but your body on the line and take all the risk. We have members of the U.S. military that put there life on the lines and put there bodies on the line.

The NFL minimum in 2010 was 355,000. Most people would love to make that much in 7 years let alone 1 year as a bench warmer.

You do realize it is the owners that is trying to lock the players out. Not the other way around. Right? The owners are crying a river and saying they are losing money, not the players. You do realize that right?
The owners are not wanting to open their books for a reason. Why do think that reason is?

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

You go to your Companies owner and ask for half of the profits, see what they say. That's business folks owners should have more money and control than their employees

Originally Posted by redskins5044

Name me a company where the the employees get more than a 50% of the companies profit? not many.

All of this is a joke to me, millionaires suing billionaires. I see where Manning, Brady and Brees are suing the NFL. Shouldn't the players that should be suing the ones who dont get the big contracts. Cry me a River NFL players. How about you save your money and have a good investment plan. I am sick of hearing that you players but your body on the line and take all the risk. We have members of the U.S. military that put there life on the lines and put there bodies on the line.

The NFL minimum in 2010 was 355,000. Most people would love to make that much in 7 years let alone 1 year as a bench warmer.

I think both of you need to read my post #314. Stop comparing this to some normal business. It's not. It's not even remotely close and you know why? Because they are the business and they aren't replaceable. You (and I) are so we'll never have that leverage.

Let me explain something. If you had a talent that couldn't be duplicated in the world and your job made BILLIONS off of you and they tried to short change you, what would you do? Would you take their word on it that their profit margins were declining. Mind you, you have made this company rich beyond it's wildest imagination. My guess is no you would not. You'd demand to see proof or you'd walk away and take your talent elsewhere.

Can you replace the Rolling Stones? No.
Can you replace Jimmie Johnson(nascar)? No.
Can you replace Peyton Manning? No.
Can you replace Joe the Plumber? Yes.
Can you replace Dale the lawyer? Yes.
Can you replace Chris Johnson? No.
Can you replace Kanye West? No.


See. The average joes (you and i) dont' have that luxury, they do. Stop comparing your trade (or employer) to theirs.

[FRPLG]

Based on what is being reported the fallout from today should be blamed on the Union. Plain and simple. I had come to back them in a general sense in this situation but when John Mara, who is pretty even keeled guy, comes out and says he was convinced they never took negotiating seriously then I lose a lot of respect from De Smith and the leaders of their union. Shame on them for this. I hope they get skewered in the courts. I don't much care who makes all the money so now I really hope the players take it in the shorts for a while until they realize they were led to slaughter by their lawyer leaders.

[Hog1]

Dear HOG1,

When I wrote to you last on behalf of the NFL, we promised you that we would work tirelessly to find a collectively bargained solution to our differences with the players' union. Subsequent to that letter to you, we agreed that the fastest way to a fair agreement was for everyone to work together through a mediation process. For the last three weeks I have personally attended every session of mediation, which is a process our clubs sincerely believe in.

Unfortunately, I have to tell you that earlier today the players' union walked away from mediation and collective bargaining and has initiated litigation against the clubs. In an effort to get a fair agreement now, our clubs offered a deal today that was, among other things, designed to have no adverse financial impact on veteran players in the early years, and would have met the players’ financial demands in the latter years of the agreement.

The proposal we made included an offer to narrow the player compensation gap that existed in the negotiations by splitting the difference; guarantee a reallocation of savings from first-round rookies to veterans and retirees without negatively affecting compensation for rounds 2-7; no compensation reduction for veterans; implement new year-round health and safety rules; retain the current 16-4 season format for at least two years with any subsequent changes subject to the approval of the league and union; and establish a new legacy fund for retired players ($82 million contributed by the owners over the next two years).

It was a deal that offered compromise, and would have ensured the well-being of our players and guaranteed the long-term future for the fans of the great game we all love so much. It was a deal where everyone would prosper.

We remain committed to collective bargaining and the federal mediation process until an agreement is reached, and call on the union to return to negotiations immediately. NFL players, clubs, and fans want an agreement. The only place it can be reached is at the bargaining table.

While we are disappointed with the union's actions, we remain steadfastly committed to reaching an agreement that serves the best interest of NFL players, clubs and fans, and thank you for your continued support of our League. First and foremost it is your passion for the game that drives us all, and we will not lose sight of this as we continue to work for a deal that works for everyone.



Yours, Truly HOG1
Roger Goodell

****The Rog took time out of a busy schedule to send me a personal note...he's thoughtful like that.

[Defensewins]

FRPGL - Because John Mara is an even keeled guy? That is a great reason.
Rather than basing your opinion on emotion or because you like this guy over that guy, how about base your opinion on facts?
Both sides have agreed this whole thing came down to one thing.....the owners claimed they lost money. Based on that claim they were asking for concessions from the players and basing thier entire argument. The players said that is fine and if you owners are losing money we will gladly give back some of our take. But before we do that blindly we need the owners to OPEN YOUR BOOKS AND PROVE YOU ARE LOSING MONEY!!!!!!!!
I do not care how even keeled John MAra is, the man crush you have on Roger Goddell or how much you can not stand DeSmith, base your opinion on the facts of the disagreement points and not a popularity contest.
Both side came out with prepared speechs today, those speeches mean nothing.
They are political bullshit.
The owners opened the door to to the claim they are losing money. They made a mistake because in order prove their point they have to show the proof. You can not just take a persons word on it in negotiations.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

FRPGL - Because John Mara is an even keeled guy? That is a great reason.
Rather than basing your opinion on emotion or because you like this guy over that guy, how about base your opinion on facts?
Both sides have agreed this whole thing came down to one thing.....the owners claimed they lost money. Based on that claim they were asking for concessions from the players and basing thier entire argument. The players said that is fine and if you owners are losing money we will gladly give back some of our take. But before we do that blindly we need the owners to OPEN YOUR BOOKS AND PROVE YOU ARE LOSING MONEY!!!!!!!!
I do not care how even keeled John MAra is, the man crush you have on Roger Goddell or how much you can not stand DeSmith, base your opinion on the facts of the disagreement points and not a popularity contest.
Both side came out with prepared speechs today, those speeches mean nothing.
They are political bullshit.
The owners opened the door to to the claim they are losing money. They made a mistake because in order prove their point they have to show the proof. You can not just take a persons word on it in negotiations.

Hey donkey. READ. I blamed the the wasting of time in the last two weeks on the players since a person who I believe is pretty honest assessed that the players were simply going through the motions. That's it. I never said anything about what you're talking about. By the way, I agree the owners needed to open the books. Oh and by the way...they offered to. The players were asking for more than they reasonably needed. There's plenty of blame to go around. But at the end of the day the players wasted everyone's time and provided false hope by not negotiating in good faith it seems.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

By the way, I agree the owners needed to open the books. Oh and by the way...they offered to. The players were asking for more than they reasonably needed.

That's not true. The owners were being selective of what they offered to show. Unfortunately, when you are asking for 1 billion of revenue back, you better be able to show it in ALL the numbers. Revenue - Expenses

Stop parroting that the NFL owners have agreed to share information. It's false. IN fact, the reason they don't want information shared is because they are in competition with other owners about revenue sharing.

Transparency is the buzzword in this round of the NFL labor fight, with the owners sticking by their long-standing policy of not opening their financial books — at least not completely — and the players demanding to see every line-by-line expense.

In NFL labor fight, a books review means a lot - Los Angeles Times

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Hey donkey. READ. I blamed the the wasting of time in the last two weeks on the players since a person who I believe is pretty honest assessed that the players were simply going through the motions. That's it. I never said anything about what you're talking about. By the way, I agree the owners needed to open the books. Oh and by the way...they offered to. The players were asking for more than they reasonably needed. There's plenty of blame to go around. But at the end of the day the players wasted everyone's time and provided false hope by not negotiating in good faith it seems.

Danm you got your panties in a knot. LOL!
John Mara (owners) and the players are directly involved in the negotiations and both have a big financial interest in the outcome. I would not believe either side 100% of the way at this point. It has turned into a smear campaign by both sides since they did not meet this initial deadline. The upset media and the rabid fans like you are so upset that a deal was not struck on March 11th that you are looking to blame someone.
Turn off the NFL Network and go outside. There is still six months to get this deal done and it will get done.
As FreddyG stated correctly this had to happen. Now it is in the hands of an impartial Judge that will make impartial and correct decisions on discovery issues and most likely open the books to the relevant NFL income and get this deal worked out.
Stop believing everything you hear on TV.

[Alvin Walton]

I wonder if things like this will accelerate getting this thing fixed.

Jets put pay cuts, furloughs in place.
As expected, the Jets introduced 25 percent pay cuts on Saturday for every employee under their football operations umbrella.That includes head coach Rex Ryan and GM Mike Tannenbaum. Meanwhile, every worker on the business side of things will be required to take unpaid furloughs until a new CBA is agreed to. However, if an agreement is reached before the start of the preseason, all employees will be reimbursed for their lost pay. Mar 12, 4:53 PM

Mark Sanchez - New York Jets - 2011 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

[CRedskinsRule]

The players, as a group - as I referred to them- do make hundreds of millions, in fact they make 4billion, but I was comparing to those players who were playing the last time the union decertified, and I don't know the exact amounts players made in the late 80s and 90s , so I figured that it was safe to say current players, as a group, are making hundreds of millions more than those in the past eras. Hope that clarifies my point for you.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

The players, as a group - as I referred to them- do make hundreds of millions, in fact they make 4billion, but I was comparing to those players who were playing the last time the union decertified, and I don't know the exact amounts players made in the late 80s and 90s , so I figured that it was safe to say current players, as a group, are making hundreds of millions more than those in the past eras. Hope that clarifies my point for you.

Gotcha.


Point still is, 1696 guys have to split 4 billion. 32 guys get to split 5 billion. Which side is making out better?

[Hog1]

This is getting to be a very....emotional issue and seriously straying from any semblance of fact? I am not really sure how this differs much from any Union/Mgmt bargaining situation?
Workers.....work and provide the product and get all they can from the Mgmt......
Mgmt.....manages the workers to produce the product and get all they can from the workers.......
A bit simplistic, but true nonetheless? Is that somehow different from what is going on here?

[CRedskinsRule]

Also nc_skins, let the players go to the cfl or ufl or open a new league see what revenues they pull in versus the nfl with replacement players with the tv contracts in place, the stadium leases signed and all the other parts that the ownership maintains. I am willing to bet that the players as a group won't be matching that 4billion dollar mark. While the NFL and established teams would. You may think the owners simply twiddle their thumbs, but they have they established credit and name reputation that would win the day. Out of the 1700 players there are a handful that are true exceptionals, ie manning brees etc but for every manning the league would most likely find a brady in the udfa or fletcher or other man who might not have gotten the chance with the current rosters in place.

As for the owners opting out, they followed an agreed upon point in the last cba. The players now have said they don't want to mediate or negotiate. They want to litigate. That is their choice. Both parties have led it to this point neither is a victim and neither deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Like I said before these points have been clearly put out there before: but since you like summaries:

1) nflpa has decertified rather than mediate
2) after decertification smith continued to try and get 10 yrs of data under the false pretense of being a legitimate bargaining entity.
3) players have seen unparallelled salary growth in the last 10 years as the result of a solid advantage gained in the last cba
4) owners acted within their legal rights when they opted out, and both parties could have tried to mediate and solve this issue
5) tom cruise doesn't get 50% of a movie studios box receipt and pavarotti doesn't ask to see all the books at that opera house, only the box office take that he brings in and both pavarotti and the operahouse enjoy success with that arrangement

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Also nc_skins, let the players go to the cfl or ufl or open a new league see what revenues they pull in versus the nfl with replacement players with the tv contracts in place, the stadium leases signed and all the other parts that the ownership maintains. I am willing to bet that the players as a group won't be matching that 4billion dollar mark. While the NFL and established teams would.

I assure you, any market that arose out of the NFL destruction would hit those same figures if not more. Why? Because we the fans demand that type of entertainment, and another league (with the same current NFL players) could provide that same entertainment. (same rules..etc.) The only thing that would change is the letters NFL to (insert 3 letters of your choice). Why? Because TV would still pay that same figure to that league if fans wanted it. (and we would) Don't believe me? Try switching the NFL and UFL players. Would you continue to watch the Redskins? Probably not, and neither would I. Why? Because of the talent level drop off.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Out of the 1700 players there are a handful that are true exceptionals, ie manning brees etc but for every manning the league would most likely find a brady in the udfa or fletcher or other man who might not have gotten the chance with the current rosters in place.

No, all 1696 NFL players are exceptional. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in the NFL. Remember, the NFL is the best of the best so if you aren't in that group, chances are you aren't one of the best. It's really that simple. Now, that changes annually with newer/fresher talent, but that number still stays the same. (1696)

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

As for the owners opting out, they followed an agreed upon point in the last cba. The players now have said they don't want to mediate or negotiate. They want to litigate. That is their choice. Both parties have led it to this point neither is a victim and neither deserves the benefit of the doubt.

That is not true, and I quite frankly don't even know where you came up with that nonsense. The owners have been denying the players union to see the books for 2 years now all the while claiming profit loss and telling them to "trust them". The NFLPA has no other recourse but to do litigation when the owners aren't willing to concede to that request. Nobody is going to negotiate off of "trust me" when it comes to money. Would you? Nope. Both parties haven't led to this. I showed you in detail how the owners have been preparing to opt out since they signed the last CBA in 2006. The players were fine with the current CBA, they are willing to go back to the current CBA. I think you are failing to realize that whole concept.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

1) nflpa has decertified rather than mediate
2) after decertification smith continued to try and get 10 yrs of data under the false pretense of being a legitimate bargaining entity.
3) players have seen unparallelled salary growth in the last 10 years as the result of a solid advantage gained in the last cba
4) owners acted within their legal rights when they opted out, and both parties could have tried to mediate and solve this issue
5) tom cruise doesn't get 50% of a movie studios box receipt and pavarotti doesn't ask to see all the books at that opera house, only the box office take that he brings in and both pavarotti and the operahouse enjoy success with that arrangement

1) Wrong. They decertified after every last effort was exhausted. The owners have denied them access to the books for two years and still weren't going to show them the books even at this last deadline. Read the quote from the federal mediator below.

NFLPA decertifies, files antitrust suit against league - ESPN

"The parties have not achieved an overall agreement, nor have they been able to resolve the strongly held competing positions that separated them on core issues, mediator George Cohen said. "No useful purpose would be served by requesting the parties to continue the mediation process at this time."

2) as far as that Smith claim? What? Here is what Smith had to say.

"I would dare any one of you to pull out any economic indicator that would suggest that the National Football League is falling on hard times," NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith said. "The last 14 days, the National Football League has said, 'Trust us.' But when it came time for verification, they told us it was none of our business."

3) 1696 players splitting 4 billion compared to 32 people splitting 5 billion. Who's making out better?

4)Actually the owners didn't handle things legally hence Doty ruled that the NFL acted against the players when it negotiated its TV contract.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/sp...all/02nfl.html
They were trying to gain all the leverage when they opted out so they'd still get 4 billion even during the lockout. Also the players are within their legal rights to decertify after all attempts at negotiation have been exhausted. (see fed mediator's quote)

5) Tom Cruise gets a fee and most likely a percentage of the overall profits and dvd sales. I bet you they do indeed see the numbers on those profits. Also, Pavarotti didn't have to operate like that since he wasn't under a contract with one opera house. However, if he was and said opera house was making money hand over fist and asked him to reduce his pay, I imagine he would have or left. (as would any of us)