D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Nope, completely different situation and you should know the difference. If A.H. truly wants to stay with the Redskins and help the team win by being a team player, he's got my full support. However, you would have to be a complete idiot not to see that isn't the case with AH. Even if he didn't want to be here, but kept his mouth shut, played hard all year long, and got the Pro Bowl nod, I would have supported him. But, that was not the case, so you're comparing apples to oranges.

Well, you're right that it's not the same situation, but it's exactly the same principle of supporting a Redskins player that may or may not always deserve unconditional support.

I still support DeAngelo Hall and Albert Haynesworth pretty equally based on the idea that they are still Redskins. Neither is one of my five favorite Redskins, but they are both integral parts of the team of the last two seasons. Some people have moralized why Hall should be untouchable in terms of criticism amongst fans, but that's an opinion they hold. Hall is not untouchable, even amongst his supporters.

My point was I don't like arbitrary lines drawn over who I can and cannot support. My point was not that there aren't very good reasons for being critical of Haynesworth (there are). There are also very good reasons for being critical of DHall's effort. And while their negatives couldn't be more different in nature, it would be an inconsistent principle to suggest that one isn't deserving of criticism for his on-field acts, and the other is.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, you're right that it's not the same situation, but it's exactly the same principle of supporting a Redskins player that may or may not always deserve unconditional support.

I still support DeAngelo Hall and Albert Haynesworth pretty equally based on the idea that they are still Redskins. Neither is one of my five favorite Redskins, but they are both integral parts of the team of the last two seasons. Some people have moralized why Hall should be untouchable in terms of criticism amongst fans, but that's an opinion they hold. Hall is not untouchable, even amongst his supporters.

My point was I don't like arbitrary lines drawn over who I can and cannot support. My point was not that there aren't very good reasons for being critical of Haynesworth (there are). There are also very good reasons for being critical of DHall's effort. And while their negatives couldn't be more different in nature, it would be an inconsistent principle to suggest that one isn't deserving of criticism for his on-field acts, and the other is.

And my point is you guys are beating a dead horse with drudging up all of these stats to paint a picture as to why Hall is trash and shouldn't have been voted into the Pro Bowl. Even some of you have went as far to discount such an honor as anything being worthwhile. i.e. "The Pro Bowl is a joke! Who cares that Hall made those INTs, TD, and was MVP, the quarterbacks weren't trying....etc...etc...." And meanwhile, if no Redskins player had made the Pro Bowl, then you guys would be pouting because the team had no pro bowl caliber representatives on the team. And I am saying, let it go already. All of you! Hall made the Pro Bowl. Whether if you agree with it or not, whether if you think it was anything worthwhile or not, the fact is, DeAngelo Hall was a Pro Bowl player this year and won the MVP award for the game. I don't care what type of stats you have or how you try to bend them, it doesn't erase the fact that Hall was a Pro Bowl player. I find it's much better to just accept it and be happy for him, rather than to complain and be critical about it for pages and pages.

With that said, D. Hall is not one of my favorites in regards to current Redskins players. He's not even in my top five, even though he is a VA Tech grad. I'm just sick and tired of the belly-aching that has become Redskins nation.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

And my point is you guys are beating a dead horse with drudging up all of these stats to paint a picture as to why Hall is trash and shouldn't have been voted into the Pro Bowl. Even some of you have went as far to discount such an honor as anything being worthwhile. i.e. "The Pro Bowl is a joke! Who cares that Hall made those INTs, TD, and was MVP, the quarterbacks weren't trying....etc...etc...." And meanwhile, if no Redskins player had made the Pro Bowl, then you guys would be pouting because the team had no pro bowl caliber representatives on the team. And I am saying, let it go already. All of you! Hall made the Pro Bowl. Whether if you agree with it or not, whether if you think it was anything worthwhile or not, the fact is, DeAngelo Hall was a Pro Bowl player this year and won the MVP award for the game. I don't care what type of stats you have or how you try to bend them, it doesn't erase the fact that Hall was a Pro Bowl player. I find it's much better to just accept it and be happy for him, rather than to complain and be critical about it for pages and pages.

With that said, D. Hall is not one of my favorites in regards to current Redskins players. He's not even in my top five, even though he is a VA Tech grad. I'm just sick and tired of the belly-aching that has become Redskins nation.

Well, then you're arguing a strawman: Skins fan who thinks that it's a horrible thing that DeAngelo Hall was allowed to play in the probowl and made the most of his opportunity. That person doesn't exist.

As far as whether he deserved to play in the pro bowl, that actually is beating a dead horse. The pro bowl selectors can't agree on anything without numbers, and those exist only for passers, rushers, receivers, and pass rushers. For cornerbacks, it's guys with lots of interceptions. I think everyone agrees that's a stupid way to do it, but a lot of people still use interception totals to defend selections.

A lot of fans are just very indifferent to the fact that Hall was a pro-bowler this year. Your problem seems to be with that, though I think that's a really silly thing to be worked up about: people not caring that Hall was elected to the pro bowl. Maybe next year, I can prepare to be really excited for the Redskins pro bowlers. I don't think it's going to happen though.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, then you're arguing a strawman: Skins fan who thinks that it's a horrible thing that DeAngelo Hall was allowed to play in the probowl and made the most of his opportunity. That person doesn't exist.

LOL! Not from this thread, I would have to disagree.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

As far as whether he deserved to play in the pro bowl, that actually is beating a dead horse.

Exactly, but yet people are arguing such. And all I'm saying is, he made it. Case closed.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

The pro bowl selectors can't agree on anything without numbers, and those exist only for passers, rushers, receivers, and pass rushers. For cornerbacks, it's guys with lots of interceptions. I think everyone agrees that's a stupid way to do it, but a lot of people still use interception totals to defend selections.

The fact is, if they use INTs alone to select cornerbacks to Pro Bowls, then apparently D. Hall qualified with whatever numbers he had. I'm not arguing whether or not that's fair, right, or should be changed. I'm just saying, he made it based on whatever criteria needed to be satisfied. And if the end, they selected him going the any, meny, miny, moe route, then whatever, he's still a Pro Bowler.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

A lot of fans are just very indifferent to the fact that Hall was a pro-bowler this year. Your problem seems to be with that, though I think that's a really silly thing to be worked up about: people not caring that Hall was elected to the pro bowl. Maybe next year, I can prepare to be really excited for the Redskins pro bowlers. I don't think it's going to happen though.

Well, geez, go back and re-read the thread, because apparently there are people here who are really worked up over the fact that he did make it to the pro bowl. It's not all one-sided Tripp. If I get worked up it's over the constant complaining, in general. If the 'skins win, they don't win by enough points, if they lose, let's tear the whole team apart and start over after one year. We need a veteran QB, no we need a rookie QB, etc.... don't get me wrong, I welcome different points of view. I just feel that whether if one agrees or not, let's be happy that there are some positive things to cheer about with this team. Hall, Fletcher, and Orakpo making the Pro Bowl is a positive thing.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Well, geez, go back and re-read the thread, because apparently there are people here who are really worked up over the fact that he did make it to the pro bowl. It's not all one-sided Tripp. If I get worked up it's over the constant complaining, in general. If the 'skins win, they don't win by enough points, if they lose, let's tear the whole team apart and start over after one year. We need a veteran QB, no we need a rookie QB, etc.... don't get me wrong, I welcome different points of view. I just feel that whether if one agrees or not, let's be happy that there are some positive things to cheer about with this team. Hall, Fletcher, and Orakpo making the Pro Bowl is a positive thing.

But, as somebody who read the thread, it was no ones explicit assertion that DeAngelo Hall was the only player in the pro bowl who didn't deserve to go. There were a lot of bad pro bowl picks this year. There are every year. Hall is who is is, and that's not who a majority of people (on both sides) see him as.

There's plenty of evidence that Hall didn't deserve to be there. Also: plenty that he did. It's factually correct that he was there -- as you've pointed out -- but no one was arguing that. You've been adamant that people admit to something that no one is denying.

I would ask you to just try not to sweat how other individuals perceive Redskin players. We had three pro-bowlers this year, despite being a bad team. That's not unprecedented. Wouldn't you agree with me that if people were just hating on good Redskins players for the sake of hating on good Redskins players, that Fletcher and Orakpo would be getting as much conversation as Hall has received in this thread? But, they have not.

I think people are getting worked up over peoples' perceptions of Hall's performance this year. Part of that perception is that voters put him in the pro bowl. Evidence presented in this thread is just trying to keep his contributions in perspective.

I'll say this: the best corners in football this year were almost all in the AFC, so Hall was not as ridiculous a pick as some may think. It was stupid that Tramon Williams and Brent Grimes had to wait for someone to drop out to get in, but you didn't hear near the viatrol on Charles Woodson or Asante Samuel getting in on reputation that you did on Hall.

It's also true that the more analysis one does, the worse Hall looks. Saying that is not me trying to deny that Hall went to the pro bowl and played well, it's just trying to keep things in perspective. The Pro Bowl is notorious for just taking a cursory look at the seasons player had before counting the ballots. It is what it is: not something worth getting worked up about. But Hall's season is about so much more than being a pro bowler, that talking about his season in context of going to the pro bowl is not worth anyones time.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But, as somebody who read the thread, it was no ones explicit assertion that DeAngelo Hall was the only player in the pro bowl who didn't deserve to go. There were a lot of bad pro bowl picks this year. There are every year. Hall is who is is, and that's not who a majority of people (on both sides) see him as.

There's plenty of evidence that Hall didn't deserve to be there. Also: plenty that he did. It's factually correct that he was there -- as you've pointed out -- but no one was arguing that. You've been adamant that people admit to something that no one is denying.

I would ask you to just try not to sweat how other individuals perceive Redskin players. We had three pro-bowlers this year, despite being a bad team. That's not unprecedented. Wouldn't you agree with me that if people were just hating on good Redskins players for the sake of hating on good Redskins players, that Fletcher and Orakpo would be getting as much conversation as Hall has received in this thread? But, they have not.

I think people are getting worked up over peoples' perceptions of Hall's performance this year. Part of that perception is that voters put him in the pro bowl. Evidence presented in this thread is just trying to keep his contributions in perspective.

I'll say this: the best corners in football this year were almost all in the AFC, so Hall was not as ridiculous a pick as some may think. It was stupid that Tramon Williams and Brent Grimes had to wait for someone to drop out to get in, but you didn't hear near the viatrol on Charles Woodson or Asante Samuel getting in on reputation that you did on Hall.

It's also true that the more analysis one does, the worse Hall looks. Saying that is not me trying to deny that Hall went to the pro bowl and played well, it's just trying to keep things in perspective. The Pro Bowl is notorious for just taking a cursory look at the seasons player had before counting the ballots. It is what it is: not something worth getting worked up about. But Hall's season is about so much more than being a pro bowler, that talking about his season in context of going to the pro bowl is not worth anyones time.

If it's not something to be worked up about, why do further analysis to determine that a player doesn't deserve pro bowl honors? Logic says from human analysis that one doesn't go to such great lengths just for the heck of it. There is always motive other than simply knowledge.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

If it's not something to be worked up about, why do further analysis to determine that a player doesn't deserve pro bowl honors? Logic says from human analysis that one doesn't go to such great lengths just for the heck of it. There is always motive other than simply knowledge.

Because there's a lot of meaning in the analysis outside of the pro bowl. I want to know who the best 20 corners are in football, in order of their value (I can't know this, but at least after all the hours I've put in I have some sort of idea). The pro bowl outcome is meaningless in terms of analysis, but the analysis still helps.

In this case, the pro bowl revels in its absence of knowledge. I'm perfectly okay with it holding the status quo as a meaningless honor and a meaningless game. That's why I use the descriptive phrase "pro bowl level" in analysis pieces. Actually being named to the pro bowl doesn't mean a thing, but that's an abstract level of performance for all players to strive for.

[warriorzpath]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

I'm just sick and tired of the belly-aching that has become Redskins nation.

Yup, me too. And I can complain with the best of them.