Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Bucket

You're just picking on the guy lol.. The Evans play was a good throw and play by the offense in which Hall still almost pulled the ball out to make a play.

The 3 yard slant? Really? Come on man.. He was tight on that coverage too, and if the WR makes the catch it's a 4 yard gain.

You're just being finicky with Hall, and it's the other side of the field we have to worry about more then Hall. Hall can't make all the plays,and he's not the guy who is going to lock down every play and every WR in the game today, but he's a good corner and I support him.

Our opinions wont change, so i'm going to agree to disagree. The guy won 2 games for us last year, and i'm glad he's a Redskin

The Hall bashing is really humorous on this board. Truth is, we see the other corners play a fraction of the time we see our guys week in and week out. So it's quite easy to take a handful of plays from the highlight reel or during the playoffs, when we see the other corners play nationally, and conclude they are head and shoulders above what we have. All corners give up big plays and miss tackles.

I'm not taking anything from from the other so called elite corners, but it seems we're nit-picking here. D.Hall had 95 tackles, 2 forced fumbles and six picks last year, and 16 defended passes. There are a lot of ways we could parse those stats and come to different conclusions, but given the front seven Hall playing in front of him last season and the plays he made, I'd still take him over the majority of cornerbacks in this league.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

The Hall bashing is really humorous on this board. Truth is, we see the other corners play a fraction of the time we see our guys week in and week out. So it's quite easy to take a handful of plays from the highlight reel or during the playoffs, when we see the other corners play nationally, and conclude they are heads and shoulders above what we have. All corners give up big plays and miss tackles.

I'm not taking anything from from the other so called elite corners, but it seems we're nit-picking here. D.Hall had 95 tackles, 2 forced fumbles and six picks last year, and 16 defended passes. There are a lot of ways we could parse those stats and come to different conclusions, but given the front seven Hall playing in front of him last season and the plays he made, I'd still take him over the majority of cornerbacks in this league.

Cornerback is one of the positions where stats are absolutely terrible at describing performance. Good coverage usually results in no stats being accrued.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Cornerback is one of the positions where stats are absolutely terrible at describing performance. Good coverage usually results in no stats being accrued.

Like I said we can parse the stats and come to different conclusions. Hall had twice as many tackles as Champ Baily. That probably says more about who Champ Baily had playing in front of him and the scheme than it does about Hall's tackling ability or lack thereof if you believe everything being said here. That said, you still don't make 95 arm tackles, at some point you have to conclude the guy stuck his helmet and pads in somebody's chest.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Like I said we can parse the stats and come to different conclusions. Hall had twice as many tackles as Champ Baily. That probably says more about who Champ Baily had playing in front of him and the scheme than it does about Hall's tackling ability or lack thereof if you believe everything being said here. That said, you still don't make 95 arm tackles, at some point you have to conclude the guy stuck his helmet and pads in somebody's chest.

Good corners do not make 95 tackles because such a high number of tackles means that corner is giving up away too many completions and thus is not feared by QBs.

Asomugha and Revis both have a far lower amount of tackles and NOBODY would argue that they're even on par with Hall; both are better. The reason why? Testing them usually results in a play that gains 0 yards(incompletions) or worse.
They do not sacrifice coverage for a small marginal gain in INTs. Breaking 10 picks in a season is a difficult task, and converting picks into points is hardly a guaranteed matter. The point differential between a successful INT by Hall and failed attempt by Hall must be a positive value, otherwise, he's likely hurting the team. Yes, you want guys who can grab picks when the situation DOES present itself(which Stonehands could not do), at the same time, you don't want them to take too much risk and then give up points.

Hell, Hall has never had more than 6 picks in a season. Thus, AT MOST, he would fetch 42 points based on "successful" picks. Since not every pick results in points, that number is far lower. But his number of UNSUCCESSFUL picks gives the opponent points. Since he is such a habitual gambler, I believe assuming he attempts at least 16 times a season to grab those picks is not out of the question. Heck, if his failed gambles led to a field goal every time, the points he snatch for the team and the points he helped cough up would be equal.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Good corners do not make 95 tackles because such a high number of tackles means that corner is giving up away too many completions and thus is not feared by QBs.

Asomugha and Revis both have a far lower amount of tackles and NOBODY would argue that they're even on par with Hall; both are better. The reason why? Testing them usually results in a play that gains 0 yards(incompletions) or worse.
They do not sacrifice coverage for a small marginal gain in INTs. Breaking 10 picks in a season is a difficult task, and converting picks into points is hardly a guaranteed matter. The point differential between a successful INT by Hall and failed attempt by Hall must be a positive value, otherwise, he's likely hurting the team. Yes, you want guys who can grab picks when the situation DOES present itself(which Stonehands could not do), at the same time, you don't want them to take too much risk and then give up points.

Hell, Hall has never had more than 6 picks in a season. Thus, AT MOST, he would fetch 42 points based on "successful" picks. Since not every pick results in points, that number is far lower. But his number of UNSUCCESSFUL picks gives the opponent points. Since he is such a habitual gambler, I believe assuming he attempts at least 16 times a season to grab those picks is not out of the question. Heck, if his failed gambles led to a field goal every time, the points he snatch for the team and the points he helped cough up would be equal.

I think you're missing the point or I'm not be entirely clear. I never put Hall in Asomugha and Revis' class, I'm not crazy. I also pointed out there are a couple of ways you could read Hall having 95 tackles. I suppose you could also reason away his ints and 16 defended passes. What's not really up for debate is that Hall is one helluva playmaker. And given the talent he's been playing with for the past three seasons and changing systems, I'm pretty satisfied with his production as a Redskin. Actually I'm very satisfied with his play as a Redskin.

As far as the aforementioned corners, frankly I don't see them play every week. So I don't know how many tackles they miss, how many coverages they blow, and how many ints they drop. By the way, of the top corners in the league Charles Woodson happens to be my favorite.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I think you're missing the point or I'm not be entirely clear. I never put Hall in Asomugha and Revis' class, I'm not crazy. I also pointed out there are a couple of ways you could read Hall having 95 tackles. I suppose you could also reason away his ints and 16 defended passes. What's not really up for debate is that Hall is one helluva playmaker. And given the talent he's been playing with for the past three seasons and changing systems, I'm pretty satisfied with his production as a Redskin. Actually I'm very satisfied with his play as a Redskin.

As far as the aforementioned corners, frankly I don't see them play every week. So I don't know how many tackles they miss, how many coverages they blow, and how many ints they drop. By the way, of the top corners in the league Charles Woodson happens to be my favorite.

This is totally separate from my criticism of Hall in the rest of the thread. And I may be the only guy who thinks this. But I think there's 20 corners in the league I'd take over Hall simply in terms of making big plays.

What he did to Flacco in the first quarter against Baltimore on Thursday was a big time defensive play. He drove on that route, had good position settled underneath, broke aggressively on the football making a great play on the ball, and then took it the distance. That's what playmakers do.

But I only get 4, maybe 5 of those plays out of Hall a season. I get twice that out of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu and even LaRon Landry every 8 games. During Hall's best games, where he's running step for step with receivers and not giving up the big play, you rarely hear about him.

To me, Hall isn't much of a playmaker, at least how I'd define it: being consistently around the football so that good things happen. When Hall gets the ball in his hands: there's a good chance he's making a play. But between fumble recoveries and INTs, thats 5, maybe 6 times a season. And Hall is just not a "nose for the football" guy. You'll get a few INTs in any season, but how often is he amongst the league leaders in INTs?

I suppose he's pretty consistently in the top 20 NFL players in INTs, but I'm not sure thats all being a playmaker entails. Stripping Tashard Choice was a big-time play, but that was his last play on a ball carrier of the season. In the second half of last season, I don't think he made a play. Not one.

Again, this has nothing to do with my criticism of Hall's selfishness in the rest of the thread. Totally separate issue.

[Swarley]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Good corners do not make 95 tackles because such a high number of tackles means that corner is giving up away too many completions and thus is not feared by QBs.

Asomugha and Revis both have a far lower amount of tackles and NOBODY would argue that they're even on par with Hall; both are better. The reason why? Testing them usually results in a play that gains 0 yards(incompletions) or worse.
They do not sacrifice coverage for a small marginal gain in INTs. Breaking 10 picks in a season is a difficult task, and converting picks into points is hardly a guaranteed matter. The point differential between a successful INT by Hall and failed attempt by Hall must be a positive value, otherwise, he's likely hurting the team. Yes, you want guys who can grab picks when the situation DOES present itself(which Stonehands could not do), at the same time, you don't want them to take too much risk and then give up points.

Hell, Hall has never had more than 6 picks in a season. Thus, AT MOST, he would fetch 42 points based on "successful" picks. Since not every pick results in points, that number is far lower. But his number of UNSUCCESSFUL picks gives the opponent points. Since he is such a habitual gambler, I believe assuming he attempts at least 16 times a season to grab those picks is not out of the question. Heck, if his failed gambles led to a field goal every time, the points he snatch for the team and the points he helped cough up would be equal.

Are wide receivers the only players on the field that get tackled? Is Hall supposed to cover every receiver on the field as well as disrupt handoffs so a rb can't run the ball?

First it was he can't tackle now it's he's giving up so many completions that he has more chances to tackle than anyone else.

D-Hall is a playmaking corner that gives up a few more than we would like to see but let's give credit where it's due. He did well when it came to tackling last year and that was one point of his game he really worked on.