Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

[Swarley]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.

I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.

So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.

How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.

When he has the ball in his hands? Oh yeah, Hall is fantastic with the ball in his hands. He's a threat to take it to the house every time. One of the very best in the game. For 4 plays in any given season. That's more than $3 million/play, if you do the math.

The more liberal we use the definition, the fewer plays Hall actually makes relative to the competition. I'm not saying we all should define playmaking as hard hits + difficult pass breakups + against the top level competition + interceptions and strips + scoring opportunities. That's a very broad stroke I'm painting with. I also started in reply to you by saying I hardly expect anyone to agree. I freely admitted to looking at it differently than the norm. And I don't feel that's a bad thing.

I can't claim to be without bias when it comes to Redskins players, so I won't try to convince anyone. The assertion that I'm biased against DHall, specifically (and because I hate him), is beyond silly and has no basis in reality. The assertion that I am biased because he's a Redskin and all the other corners I'm grading are not Redskins is far more rooted in reality. To that I'd say: of course. I consider myself informed, sure, but take the actual subjective ranking of a Redskins player against a non-Redskin with a grain of salt. There's definitely bias here, no matter how objective I try to be.