Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

Would you care to list these 20 or so corners you have in front of Hall in terms of playmaking abilities.?

Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

UPDATED: Finally had a chance to review the game. Hopefully this is a preview of a weekly SS33 Game Review.

OL - Huge improvement from last year. Familiarity with the ZB scheme is helping the guys from last year. I finally saw an important component of the ZB scheme that was missing last year.....the cut blocks. On the Hightower TD, the cut from KL took down two Ravens and opened the cutback lane. I specifically saw good two good cuts by TW and another by KL. Didn't notice any from Brown/Chester, but hope they're coming.

Monty at C, without bashing ol' turnstile Rabach for a paragraph, let's just say Monty is a huge upgrade at C. The only bad play from him was a mis-communication between him and Chester that allowed the DT to shoot the A gap and blow up a run. Monty went 2nd level too early and Chester couldn't reach the DT.

Pass-pro is much improved. Not seeing the OL getting beaten with a 4 or 5 man rush. The OL is getting at worst a stalemate in pass-pro, which is a win and big improvement from last year where our OL were not only doing a poor job of blitz pick-up, but were losing individual battles.

Blitz Pick-up - An area that needs work, but with new players at C, RG, RB and TE this should improve and is an area that can be "coached up". TW has to get better at reading overload C-gap pressure and stay home rather than get sucked down to the B gap. Brown and Chester need to improve communication in passing the rushers between them. The blitz pick-up appears to be more of an issue on Brown's side. Hopefully by game 4-5 Brown, Chester and the backs/Davis will have settled in.

Davis is much improved in blocking and appears to be taking pride in this effort here. He still has work to do in blitz pick-up, but the run blocking appears to be coming along well and he's showing "want-to".

Hightower looks to be a great fit, excellent cut in the open field on the TD, also excellent explosion and "second gear" which we haven't had in our backfield in quite some time. He did well in pass-pro, another good "want to" showing.

Austin has earned a roster spot. Sure hands, making plays, appears to have a good grasp on his responsibilities.

Our O faced the Ravens 1st team D and played well, I wouldn't say "dominated" but they did win the battle up front and displayed a very good effort all around.

DL - Very pleased here. Cofield is showing why he was the most improtant off-season acquisition. He holds his ground in the run game and creates pressure in the pass game. The base 3-4 rush and 4-man front are getting pressure without needing blitz support....huge improvement from last year. I really like the even front with Rak and Kerrigan off the edges and Cofield and possibly Carriker/Bowen/Scott (JJ loss is awful, overall we'll be fine but he was a pleasant surprise).

Not real happy with Bowen's pre-snap stance (I get in a similar stance in the early AM), but he's doing his job so far.

I think Scott earned himself a roster spot with his versatility and effort. He created good pressure in pass rush and held up well in the run game overall.

Defensive Secondary: We've discussed Hall in other posts so I won't repeat.

Rushkins made a great post on this earlier. We are going to be hurt by not having OJA and LL on the field together in camp and pre-season. There were two specific plays where OJA was completely lost/out of position. The one that hurt most was the Boldin cross. OJA gets sucked out of his zone by the post and Boldin comes underneath into his vacated zone for a big play. I initially thought Hall got sucked up on a flat route, but a closer look showed a Cover 3 Zone deep and OJA was the culprit. Also, our youngsters didn't play particularly well, Gomes and Jones didn't help their cause.

Rak looked very good, Kerrigan too. Not worried about the penalties on 91, they're effort penalties and will be corrected. I'd like to see Neild make the team, he's doing a good job holding his ground and taking up space in the run game. He got a good push in pass rush, but I don't think he'll ever be considered a sack threat.

I liked the playcalls by Haslett. Good mix on D, different looks, coverages, blitzes.

I think Locklear, Golston, and Clemens can be cut.

And finally.....Beck vs. Rex. Beck has a better grasp of the O. He's making the correct reads and quick/accurate throws. The deep INT appeared to be a miscommunication between him and Stallworth that will be corrected once the final 53 is determined and they get familiar with each other. Beck led him in, Stallworth was looking out. If in doubt, throw it out(side) should be the rule of thumb....less chance for INT. Or Beck just made a $hitty throw....but I think it was the former.

Rex is still the same guy, great throws in stretches, but too many poor throws/reads that will kill drives and lose games. Before the TD, Smith should've picked him on a VERY poor throw. That being said Moss dropped a TD right before that. Rex also doesn't identify the blitz and coverage quite as quickly as Beck does.

SS, 12th, 53, thanks for the kind words. Any reviews I do are Warpath Exclusives I'll do my best to keep them up every week.

[Swarley]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.

I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.

So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.

[GTripp0012]

I am not questioning the value of Hall's big plays to the Redskins. Just the frequency of them.

[Swarley]

Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)

I'm not even sure I have a concrete opinion on whether Hall truly holds back the defense, or whether he's more of an innocent bystander in a vortex of suck that is our pass defense. I waffle on this. I totally agree with you that simply getting rid of Hall wouldn't fix all of our defensive problems. It would make Byron Westbrook a starting corner.

I don't disagree with those who say he improved in tackling last year. He wasn't good in run support, but for all the times that teams tried that "now" smoke screen against Hall, he generally stopped the receiver before it started. Can he tackle a back in space? No. And neither can Rocky McIntosh, a linebacker. Hall used to struggle to put receivers on the ground, and I don't think he did last year. Young players can improve and I believe that's what happened to Hall's tackling skill. He got better at it.

I think Hall is a problem on this defense. And when I see him do something self-absorbed, there are days I'm certain we'd be better off without him and his contract. Most of the time, I'm able to remind myself that most football teams don't have two good corners, and some teams absolutely start players who don't contribute as much as Hall does. But my biggest issue is the selfishness that leads to penalties of the 5 and 15 yard variety.

Hall thinks he's good enough where his on-field contributions outweigh any flags he may get for extracurricular activity. And that's where my support for him as a Redskin ends.

[Bucket]

Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns.

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Bucket

Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns.

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.

Yes, but Cooley's play killed any chance of a turnover and no one could possibly conclude he was being me-first or selfish by preserving the possession for the Redskins, even after he committed an illegal bat. The Cooley-equivalent of what Hall did would be if he lost the fumble, it was recovered by the defense, and then if Cooley pointed at three different officials to argue that he was down by contact, and then went and stood behind the opposing huddle and got an offside penalty in protest. And then I would absolutely argue that Cooley was being selfish. Of course, that didn't happen.

The second point is just mindbogglingly stupid. That's exactly what any player fighting for their job would and should have done. If I had chosen to remark about the on-field play, that's not hating, that's having some semblance of awareness about what is happening during the football game. But since I never even went in that direction, this is total lunacy.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.

How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.

[budw38]

Great review SS33 ( John Madden ) . Very direct in your view , thanks for the insight. Good luck everyone , Irene is here .

[NYCskinfan82]

Good read SS33.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.

When he has the ball in his hands? Oh yeah, Hall is fantastic with the ball in his hands. He's a threat to take it to the house every time. One of the very best in the game. For 4 plays in any given season. That's more than $3 million/play, if you do the math.

The more liberal we use the definition, the fewer plays Hall actually makes relative to the competition. I'm not saying we all should define playmaking as hard hits + difficult pass breakups + against the top level competition + interceptions and strips + scoring opportunities. That's a very broad stroke I'm painting with. I also started in reply to you by saying I hardly expect anyone to agree. I freely admitted to looking at it differently than the norm. And I don't feel that's a bad thing.

I can't claim to be without bias when it comes to Redskins players, so I won't try to convince anyone. The assertion that I'm biased against DHall, specifically (and because I hate him), is beyond silly and has no basis in reality. The assertion that I am biased because he's a Redskin and all the other corners I'm grading are not Redskins is far more rooted in reality. To that I'd say: of course. I consider myself informed, sure, but take the actual subjective ranking of a Redskins player against a non-Redskin with a grain of salt. There's definitely bias here, no matter how objective I try to be.

[GTripp0012]

And let me be neither the last or first to add: good breakdown Slinging Sammy 33.

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yes, but Cooley's play killed any chance of a turnover and no one could possibly conclude he was being me-first or selfish by preserving the possession for the Redskins, even after he committed an illegal bat. The Cooley-equivalent of what Hall did would be if he lost the fumble, it was recovered by the defense, and then if Cooley pointed at three different officials to argue that he was down by contact, and then went and stood behind the opposing huddle and got an offside penalty in protest. And then I would absolutely argue that Cooley was being selfish. Of course, that didn't happen.

The second point is just mindbogglingly stupid. That's exactly what any player fighting for their job would and should have done. If I had chosen to remark about the on-field play, that's not hating, that's having some semblance of awareness about what is happening during the football game. But since I never even went in that direction, this is total lunacy.

I think your hatred for one of the best CB's the Redskins have ever had is pretty mindbogglingly. It's obvious to the whole community your are anti-Hall