US Infects Guatemalans With Syphilis During 1940s Experiments

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

I suppose the deaths of Native Americans, the African Salves and the Chines rail road worker don't count? America was born out of sin, into sin and and will die in sin. I am quite tired of people making indirect apologies for it and using deflection. America doesn't need defending nor does it deserve defending.

I said 20th century. Yup, in the 19th Century, we ignored the words of our own Declaration and that proclamation "all men are created equal" and, as a practical matter, did exactly what the Nazis did which was to justify slavery, murder and war by dehumanizing all who weren't white, protestant, Europeans. Was it wrong? Yup. Did we as a nation shed blood and treasure to rectify these wrongs? Yup. Do we still spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to try and repair some of the damage done? Yup.

Of course this nation was flawed in its origin and continues to be so and will always be so. What nation, made of humans, wasn't "born in sin"? Where on this earth is that not true? Where would the utopian nation you seem to think "defensible" exist? Would its utopian nature survive its expansion and application to 300,000,000 million people of diverse cultural backgrounds. When we find wrongs, we seek to change them. Just like individuals, sometimes the wrong is seen only in retrospect.

"Die in sin"? Most definitely. Just not anytime soon. Again, humans aren't timeless and nothing we create is either wheter it be monuments or governmental structures. The US we know will die eventually b/c it is made of imperfect and finite people. Perhaps the rust and decline has begun - perhaps not.

Indirect apologies? Deflection? Not sure what you mean here, I have an idea but before I respond, would like an actual clarification.

"Doesn't deserve defending"? So although individuals may redeem themselves, the societies of which they are part of cannot? As a nation, unlike the Nazis, Stalinists or Maoists, we have changed for the better and continue to do so. Other nations have done the same, but in terms of size, none have done so on the scale that the US has in its 200+ years of existence. From a small restrictive plutocracy of landed merchants and farmers, we have expanded, granted, and protected individual freedoms to more people than other country before us. I would agree that our government should not be blindly or unquestionally defended in all its actions (past or present), but the ideals set forth in our founding documents are most definitely deserving of defense. Failure to defend the structure - flawed though it may be - built on those ideals risks their loss entirely.

To emerge from the muck of tyranny and injustice, a nation and its people will inevitably get dirty.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I said 20th century. Yup, in the 19th Century, we ignored the words of our own Declaration and that proclamation "all men are created equal" and, as a practical matter, did exactly what the Nazis did which was to justify slavery, murder and war by dehumanizing all who weren't white, protestant, Europeans. Was it wrong? Yup. Did we as a nation shed blood and treasure to rectify these wrongs? Yup. Do we still spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to try and repair some of the damage done? Yup.

Of course this nation was flawed in its origin and continues to be so and will always be so. What nation, made of humans, wasn't "born in sin"? Where on this earth is that not true? Where would the utopian nation you seem to think "defensible" exist? Would its utopian nature survive its expansion and application to 300,000,000 million people of diverse cultural backgrounds. When we find wrongs, we seek to change them. Just like individuals, sometimes the wrong is seen only in retrospect.

"Die in sin"? Most definitely. Just not anytime soon. Again, humans aren't timeless and nothing we create is either wheter it be monuments or governmental structures. The US we know will die eventually b/c it is made of imperfect and finite people. Perhaps the rust and decline has begun - perhaps not.

Indirect apologies? Deflection? Not sure what you mean here, I have an idea but before I respond, would like an actual clarification.

"Doesn't deserve defending"? So although individuals may redeem themselves, the societies of which they are part of cannot? As a nation, unlike the Nazis, Stalinists or Maoists, we have changed for the better and continue to do so. Other nations have done the same, but in terms of size, none have done so on the scale that the US has in its 200+ years of existence. From a small restrictive plutocracy of landed merchants and farmers, we have expanded, granted, and protected individual freedoms to more people than other country before us. I would agree that our government should not be blindly or unquestionally defended in all its actions (past or present), but the ideals set forth in our founding documents are most definitely deserving of defense. Failure to defend the structure - flawed though it may be - built on those ideals risks their loss entirely.

To emerge from the muck of tyranny and injustice, a nation and its people will inevitably get dirty.

To me every country has redeemable qualities. Clearly the German people have redeemed themselves as much as anyone can. Russia is a far cry from Stalin's USSR. Ditto for Mao's China. I mean, China is out there doing a lot of work in Africa to build their infrastructure while lending America money to wage it's wars. Granted a lot of China work in Africa is out of self-interest but a lot of good nonetheless.


What I mean by indirect apologies is the swiftness of response to basically point out how less faulty we are and how comparatively noble our system is. I would prefer we say "We fcked up. we should apologize and make up for it" rather than "Man, this is bad but it's not as bad as those Nazis who did the same shit at a much larger scale. Plus we're the nicest country in the world except those instances we weren't so nice." Let Americas body of work stand for itself and lets judge the good things and the bad things on their own merit without having to do addition and subtraction to mask the dump we just took with an air fresher and pretend our shit stinks but not that bad.

I can't honestly say America has transformed itself on larger scale, more rapidly and for the better compared to China, Korea, Japan, and Germany. Granted, those are homogeneous societies but unlike america they weren't built to be diverse. Have they improved their people's condition more so than United States has? On the subject of slavery I would have to find out when these respective countries abolish slavery and what that meant? Was the aftermath as bad as Jim Crow?

[budw38]

Originally Posted by saden1

To me every country has redeemable qualities. Clearly the German people have redeemed themselves as much as anyone can. Russia is a far cry from Stalin's USSR. Ditto for Mao's China. I mean, China is out there doing a lot of work in Africa to build their infrastructure while lending America money to wage it's wars. Granted a lot of China work in Africa is out of self-interest but a lot of good nonetheless.


What I mean by indirect apologies is the swiftness of response to basically point out how less faulty we are and how comparatively noble our system is. I would prefer we say "We fcked up. we should apologize and make up for it" rather than "Man, this is bad but it's not as bad as those Nazis who did the same shit at a much larger scale. Plus we're the nicest country in the world except those instances we weren't so nice." Let Americas body of work stand for itself and lets judge the good things and the bad things on their own merit without having to do addition and subtraction to mask the dump we just took with an air fresher and pretend our shit stinks but not that bad.

I can't honestly say America has transformed itself on larger scale, more rapidly and for the better compared to China, Korea, Japan, and Germany. Granted, those are homogeneous societies but unlike america they weren't built to be diverse. Have they improved their people's condition more so than United States has? On the subject of slavery I would have to find out when these respective countries abolish slavery and what that meant? Was the aftermath as bad as Jim Crow?

Nice post , however germany and many other European countries still embrace a culture of racism , injecting steroids into unsuspecting kids , and hurling racial slurs at professional athletes .Women and Steroids – The “Wonder Girls” The Ugly Game - TIME Racism still a reality in European football - CNN.com

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by budw38

Nice post , however germany and many other European countries still embrace a culture of racism , injecting steroids into unsuspecting kids , and hurling racial slurs at professional athletes .Women and Steroids – The “Wonder Girls” The Ugly Game - TIME Racism still a reality in European football - CNN.com

Two of the links are talking about the late 70s early 80s.

[budw38]

[QUOTE=firstdown;835168]Two of the links are talking about the late 70s early 80s.[/QUOTE
Yes , some things still exist today Racists target black soccer players - Washington Times , much of it sickening .

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

To me every country has redeemable qualities. Clearly the German people have redeemed themselves as much as anyone can. Russia is a far cry from Stalin's USSR. Ditto for Mao's China. I mean, China is out there doing a lot of work in Africa to build their infrastructure while lending America money to wage it's wars. Granted a lot of China work in Africa is out of self-interest but a lot of good nonetheless.

Again, every country is made of humans and, as such, each may be "redeemed". The Germans have redeemed themselves in many ways and struggle with it still. This transformation occurred, however, after the US and its allies spent considerable blood and treasure destroying the prior militiristic society and then, through the Marshall Plan, spent massive amounts of money rebuilding our former enemy's economy. Russia's transformation came about after a long costly cold war in which the US opposed the dictataorial oligarchy of the Soviet Union. Without such constant opposition from the US, I would suggest that the Soviet Union and its disregard for individual human rights would still be a force for oppression in this world. See my notes on China below.

Originally Posted by saden1

What I mean by indirect apologies is the swiftness of response to basically point out how less faulty we are and how comparatively noble our system is. I would prefer we say "We fcked up. we should apologize and make up for it" rather than "Man, this is bad but it's not as bad as those Nazis who did the same shit at a much larger scale. Plus we're the nicest country in the world except those instances we weren't so nice." Let Americas body of work stand for itself and lets judge the good things and the bad things on their own merit without having to do addition and subtraction to mask the dump we just took with an air fresher and pretend our shit stinks but not that bad.?

Okay. I don't disagree with that apologies should be just that apologies without qualification. I don't think the "addition and subtraction" is as rampant as you seem to think. I believe that, as a nation, we are more likely to admit to our faults than many others. Sometimes, to a fault. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally Posted by saden1

I can't honestly say America has transformed itself on larger scale, more rapidly and for the better compared to China, Korea, Japan, and Germany. Granted, those are homogeneous societies but unlike america they weren't built to be diverse. Have they improved their people's condition more so than United States has? On the subject of slavery I would have to find out when these respective countries abolish slavery and what that meant? Was the aftermath as bad as Jim Crow?

I can. Mainly because, but for the intervention of the US - Japan, Germany and Korea would not have been transformed. As for China, it's human rights violations are legion and the crimes it commits against its own citizens make a comparision to the US laughable.

- Germany's and Japan's society's didn't just wake up one morning and say - "Hey, let's tansform ourselves." Transformation occurred after their militiristic societies were beaten, their homelands occupied by the US, and their governments were remade during occupation along democratic lines by the US (in Japan's case) and the Western Allies (In Germany's case - specifically West Germany).

Korea? Which Korea? The one currently under a communist dictator or the one that the US and its Allies spent blood and treasure to preserve from North Korean aggression? But for US intervention and American lives spent, there would be no S. Korea to transform.

CHINA??? Are you seriously holding them up as a "transformed society"? Please:

Amnesty International has documented widespread human rights violations in China. An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial, and millions are unable to access the legal system to seek redress for their grievances. Harassment, surveillance, house arrest, and imprisonment of human rights defenders are on the rise, and censorship of the Internet and other media has grown. Repression of minority groups, including Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians, and of Falun Gong practitioners and Christians who practice their religion outside state-sanctioned churches continues. While the recent reinstatement of Supreme People's Court review of death penalty cases may result in lower numbers of executions, China remains the leading executioner in the world.

China Human Rights | Amnesty International USA

Around the late 1970s, as the first generation of Communist Party leaders were replaced by a second, some reforms provided a foundation of rapid economic development (it is now an economic superpower). The political reforms away from authoritarian rule has remained elusive.

For example, the government continues to exert its absolute control over politics, and is often looks to eradicate domestic “threats” to stability of the country through excessive use of force and authority.

Imprisonment of political opponents and journalists critical of the government has been common. The press is tightly regulated as is religion. Suppression of independence/secessionist movements is often heavy-handed, to say the least.

China and Human Rights — Global Issues


Sure, as a society, the US has plenty of black marks in its history - slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, our colonization of the Philipines, our treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, etc. We also have much on the other side of the ledger - a civil war to end slavery, the civil rights movement, our opposition of tyrany in various forms throughout history, etc. They are all part of the US's "body of work".

Again, in history, admitting that we are seriously flawed in our practice, I challenge you to find any other country that has done more to promote, provide and protect individual human rights and the rule of law than the US.

[wilsowilso]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Sure, as a society, the US has plenty of black marks in its history - slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, our colonization of the Philipines, our treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, etc. We also have much on the other side of the ledger - a civil war to end slavery, the civil rights movement, our opposition of tyrany in various forms throughout history, etc. They are all part of the US's "body of work".

Again, in history, admitting that we are seriously flawed in our practice, I challenge you to find any other country that has done more to promote, provide and protect individual human rights and the rule of law than the US.

This is such a great way to describe our country.

The only way.

Thanks.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Again, every country is made of humans and, as such, each may be "redeemed". The Germans have redeemed themselves in many ways and struggle with it still. This transformation occurred, however, after the US and its allies spent considerable blood and treasure destroying the prior militiristic society and then, through the Marshall Plan, spent massive amounts of money rebuilding our former enemy's economy. Russia's transformation came about after a long costly cold war in which the US opposed the dictataorial oligarchy of the Soviet Union. Without such constant opposition from the US, I would suggest that the Soviet Union and its disregard for individual human rights would still be a force for oppression in this world. See my notes on China below.


Okay. I don't disagree with that apologies should be just that apologies without qualification. I don't think the "addition and subtraction" is as rampant as you seem to think. I believe that, as a nation, we are more likely to admit to our faults than many others. Sometimes, to a fault. We will probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.



I can. Mainly because, but for the intervention of the US - Japan, Germany and Korea would not have been transformed. As for China, it's human rights violations are legion and the crimes it commits against its own citizens make a comparision to the US laughable.

- Germany's and Japan's society's didn't just wake up one morning and say - "Hey, let's tansform ourselves." Transformation occurred after their militiristic societies were beaten, their homelands occupied by the US, and their governments were remade during occupation along democratic lines by the US (in Japan's case) and the Western Allies (In Germany's case - specifically West Germany).

Korea? Which Korea? The one currently under a communist dictator or the one that the US and its Allies spent blood and treasure to preserve from North Korean aggression? But for US intervention and American lives spent, there would be no S. Korea to transform.

CHINA??? Are you seriously holding them up as a "transformed society"? Please:
China Human Rights | Amnesty International USA

China and Human Rights — Global Issues


Sure, as a society, the US has plenty of black marks in its history - slavery, our treatment of the native Americans, our colonization of the Philipines, our treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII, etc. We also have much on the other side of the ledger - a civil war to end slavery, the civil rights movement, our opposition of tyrany in various forms throughout history, etc. They are all part of the US's "body of work".

Again, in history, admitting that we are seriously flawed in our practice, I challenge you to find any other country that has done more to promote, provide and protect individual human rights and the rule of law than the US.

I think it is equally important that we point out that the U.S. and it's allies were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Throughout their history the Germans were strong people but rarely militaristic society. They were defensive brutes at worst and philosophers at best. The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.

It's one thing to admit to your faults, it's another to justify your faults and only correct them after decades if ever. That is what this country does more often than not and I think that's slightly better than Chinese not admitting to its faults. Remember, the China transitioned from aristocracy to Communism fairly recently and in that process the communist pointed out the faults of the aristocracy. Communism is ultimately self-defeating the piper will be calling for the communists one of these days and the faults of the communist will similarly be pointed out. The same thing can be said about the Russians.

I was speaking of South Korea. You had people that wanted to be free and people who wanted communism. Like I said, communism is ultimately self-defeating but it's definitely nice to have altruistic help from the U.S. Hopefully that desire to help will be extend to the North Koreans one of these days.

China's human rights is just as laughable as that of the United States but you wouldn't know it talking to Americans. Human rights is somehow extended to torture and political imprisonment of dissenters in the U.S. but not to justified torture, opportunity and equality. How many people are in prison in United States again and how many innocent people are falsely imprisoned? How many egregious laws are there in the books simply because it serves a political purpose certain kinds of people?

Historically speaking we are comparing countries/societies who have existed for millenniums, lack diversity and were not found based on the ideals of equality, freedom and democracy with a country that has been round centuries, diverse, and found based on the aforementioned qualities. Obviously these countries can't adapt to change as rapidly as the U.S. but if we compare which countries have gone through a significant change for the better over their life span I don't believe the U.S. wins which is the point I was making.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by saden1

I think it is equally important that we point out that the U.S. and it's allies were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Throughout their history the Germans were strong people but rarely militaristic society. They were defensive brutes at worst and philosophers at best. The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.<SNIP>

Please post proof of those two statement, they are idiotic.

Huns
Teutonic Knights
Prussians (Not the cats, they're adorable!)

[saden1]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Please post proof of those two statement, they are idiotic.

Huns
Teutonic Knights
Prussians (Not the cats, they're adorable!)

Cause and effect. One only needs to ask how and why they came to power and look at history.

Nazi Germany arose in the wake of the national shame, embarrassment, anger and resentment resulting from the Treaty of Versailles (1919),[12] that dictated, to the vanquished Germans, responsibility for:

• Germany's acceptance of and admission to sole responsibility for causing World War I[13]
• The permanent loss of various territories and the demilitarization of other German territory[14]
• The payment by Germany of heavy reparations, in money and in kind, such payments being justified in the Allied view by the War Guilt clause[15]
• Unilateral German disarmament and severe military restrictions

Nazi Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Huns were not Germanic people. You got me on the Teutonic Knights and the Old Prussians. They were definitely not defensive brutes. I was honestly equating modern date German to Prussia the Kingdom which was formed in 1701 not Old Prussia which was constituted the Holy Roman Empire and encompassed many people.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by saden1

Cause and effect. One only needs to ask how and why they came to power and look at history.

That's not 'posting proof' it's hiding behind an ambiguous statement, please try again.

I'll foreshadow my counter to what I think you're going to post by stating that when the police set up a bait car the car thief is still a car thief.

Same goes for the Taliban.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

Cause and effect. One only needs to ask how and why they came to power and look at history. [Citing the Versaille Treaty]

If all you got on the US and the Nazis rise to power is the Versailles Treaty, you should look for something else. The US Senate rejected the Treaty (mainly due to a block of isolationists opposing the US's inclusion in the League of Nations) and a separate peace was entered into with Germany in 1921.

Further, Wilson, on behalf of the US, vehemently opposed the "War Guilt" clause and the reparations. Instead, Wilson advocated for a treaty based on his 14 Points.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

I think it is equally important that we point out that the U.S. and it's allies were directly responsible for the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Throughout their history the Germans were strong people but rarely militaristic society. They were defensive brutes at worst and philosophers at best. The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.

It's one thing to admit to your faults, it's another to justify your faults and only correct them after decades if ever. That is what this country does more often than not and I think that's slightly better than Chinese not admitting to its faults. Remember, the China transitioned from aristocracy to Communism fairly recently and in that process the communist pointed out the faults of the aristocracy. Communism is ultimately self-defeating the piper will be calling for the communists one of these days and the faults of the communist will similarly be pointed out. The same thing can be said about the Russians.

I was speaking of South Korea. You had people that wanted to be free and people who wanted communism. Like I said, communism is ultimately self-defeating but it's definitely nice to have altruistic help from the U.S. Hopefully that desire to help will be extend to the North Koreans one of these days.

China's human rights is just as laughable as that of the United States but you wouldn't know it talking to Americans. Human rights is somehow extended to torture and political imprisonment of dissenters in the U.S. but not to justified torture, opportunity and equality. How many people are in prison in United States again and how many innocent people are falsely imprisoned? How many egregious laws are there in the books simply because it serves a political purpose certain kinds of people?

The modern nation of Germany was founded based on the militarism of the Prussian aristocracratic society through political manipulation and realpolitick of Bismark. (BTW - In 1848(?), the Prussian King rejected a constitutional monarchy - preferring instead his autocratic principles). It took Bismark 3 separate wars for Prussia and it militaristic aristocracy to confirm its hegemony over Germany. -- The US and its allies "are responsible for the rise of Hitler"? Well, maybe b/c of the punitive nature of the Versaille Treaty, or b/c we failed to intervene when he violated that treaty. As I recall, however, Hitler was appointed Chancellor in '33 and subsequently granted dictatorial powers by a 2/3's vote of the Reichstag.

As to China, I cited two independent sources - Amnesty International and the Global Source both of which could hardly be labled "pro-American" and both blasted China's civil rights. Find me something, anything, that indicates America is considered to be a worse human rights violator than China in any objective sense or that, as a whole, America and China are comprable when it comes to human rights violations.

You asserted that the Chinese have changed since Mao, the cites I indicated contradict that. Again, provide something that shows, since Mao, the Chinese have made the same or better strides in expanding basic human rights to its citizens that the US has since WWII. I would suggest that a Uighur or Tibetan in China now is in a similar or worse position than he was 50 years ago. The same simply cannot be said about minorities and women in America.

Originally Posted by saden1

Historically speaking we are comparing countries/societies who have existed for millenniums, lack diversity and were not found based on the ideals of equality, freedom and democracy with a country that has been round centuries, diverse, and found based on the aforementioned qualities. Obviously these countries can't adapt to change as rapidly as the U.S. but if we compare which countries have gone through a significant change for the better over their life span I don't believe the U.S. wins which is the point I was making.

These countries can't adapt? So our adaptability is a point against us somehow?? To be clear - We didn't start out diverse. We started out as a country of white Englishmen with power resting firmly in the hands of the landed and/or monied aristocracy. The fact that we can and have adapted to expand and include a multitude of different cultures and shared power with them is kind of my point. Following our founding documents is what allowed us to expand and adapt the sharing of power. That was my original point in comparing the actions to the US took against the Guatamalans as opposed to the atrocities committed by the Nazis - One government's action was counter to its founding principles, the other government's actions were consistent with its governing principles.

In the 250 years of the US's existence, we have expanded the vote from landed white men only to every citizen over the age of 18. We have changed from a slave holding country to one which rejects slavery, in any form, as acceptable. The freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights have been expanded such that actions which would have been considered treasonable even 50 years ago (burning the flag, being a member of the Communist party as two examples) are now permitted and even protected. The rights of accused have been aggressively expanded so that the procedures police and prosecutors need follow would boggle the mind of Americans even 100 years ago.

Do we "win" the title of "World's Historically Most Transformed For The Better Society"? I don't know maybe, maybe not. What is clear to me is that, though we often fail, it is the US's goal, as demonstrated by our founding documents, to constantly strive to be the winner of that title. Again, that was my original point.

You think other countries "have gone through a significant change for the better over their life span" than the US? Okay. I don't see any proof of it but, if that's what you choose to believe, okay. Good for you. I stand by my original statement that no country in history has done more than the US (warts and all) - from its inception to its current status - to promote, provide and protect human rights within and without its borders.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

The west and it's imperialism was equally to blame for the rise of Japanese Militarism.

Sorry, I almost forgot - I call serious BS on this one. Japanese militarism was, in fact, organic to its society and culture. Under Japanese feudalism, the Shogunite and its enforced isolationism, Japan bred a culture of militarism through the bushido ethic. While the US may have exposed the Japanese to western technology, the Japanese's choice of how they used that technology was entirely their own and absolutely consistent with their prior cultural history. Further, dehumanizing other cultures was well founded in Japanese history. The Japanese treatment of the Ainu was certainly equal to or worse our treatment of Native Americans (BTW - It was only in 2008 that the Japanese repealed the laws requiring Ainu to learn Japanese and recognized them as an indigenous people).

Japanese culture, well before any exposure to the West, created a society both capable and willing to perform atrocities on a huge scale.

EDIT: On behalf of the US, I would like to apologize to the victims of Japanese militarism - including the Korean People, the victicms of the Rape of Nanking, and Comfort Women - for showing the Japanese how guns work.