Whats Fair When it Comes to Taxes?

[saden1]

Originally Posted by jdlea

How should 401k's be handled then? This is before tax income that's earned compound interest for a number of years. I know it's taxed when it is paid out during retirement, but at what rate should it be taxed? Also, how would the "income" portion of it be determined?

I'm pretty ignorant to tax laws and such, so I'm asking for informational purposes, not to be combative.

I suppose I just never really thought about every bit of money I earn as income before; admittedly, I probably should have. It's just a way of thinking that needs to switch, but this is an interesting discussion, to me.

401k contributions aren't taxed at all until they are withdrawn and there a lot of rules around it. For one thing you can borrow against it and not pay taxes or penalty on it so long as you pay it back within 5 years (except when buying a home). You are required to withdraw a minimum amount of it when you turn 70.5 (this requirement was suspended by congress for 2009 because of the economic downturn).

You are technacally suppose to be taxed on it at the tax bracket you were in at your last income generating position before retirement (It doesn't mean you can go get a job at McDonald's though to lower your tax bracket). There are some strategies you can employ to lower your taxes. For example, if you don't anticipate your tax bracket to be lower as you get older and near retirement it might be wise to convert your 401k to Roth IRA before you retire since isn't subjected to minimum distribution rules which could cost you in the long run.


Bottom line is the rules around 401k are quite generous and if you combine it with other financial instruments (i.e. whole life insurance) you can definitely lower your tax bill when you retire.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

401k contributions aren't taxed at all until they are withdrawn and there a lot of rules around it. For one thing you can borrow against it and not pay taxes or penalty on it so long as you pay it back within 5 years (except when buying a home). You are required to withdraw a minimum amount of it when you turn 70.5 (this requirement was suspended by congress for 2009 because of the economic downturn).

You are technacally suppose to be taxed on it at the tax bracket you were in at your last income generating position before retirement (It doesn't mean you can go get a job at McDonald's though to lower your tax bracket). There are some strategies you can employ to lower your taxes. For example, if you don't anticipate your tax bracket to be lower as you get older and near retirement it might be wise to convert your 401k to Roth IRA before you retire since isn't subjected to minimum distribution rules which could cost you in the long run.


Bottom line is the rules around 401k are quite generous and if you combine it with other financial instruments (i.e. whole life insurance) you can definitely lower your tax bill when you retire.

Thats such a stupid rule. They allow people to dig into their retirement so they can buy a home they cannot afford.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Thats such a stupid rule. They allow people to dig into their retirement so they can buy a home they cannot afford.

You're too grown to say stupid stuff like this. You know they can't afford it how? Because they are tapping into their 401k? I tapped into my 401k to buy a home I can afford. Why? because it's kinda smart to maximize your 401k investment, borrow money against yourself for 10 years and pay yourself back with interest.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

You're too grown to say stupid stuff like this. You know they can't afford it how? Because they are tapping into their 401k? I tapped into my 401k to buy a home I can afford. Why? because it's kinda smart to maximize your 401k investment, borrow money against yourself for 10 years and pay yourself back with interest.

No I'm correct. Your too smart to know people don't do this all the time. You used your 401 to save the money to buy a home. Most people do not think that far out and they decide to buy a home and because they have no savings they tap into their 401. Thats money they will never pay back.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

No I'm correct. Your too smart to know people don't do this all the time. You used your 401 to save the money to buy a home. Most people do not think that far out and they decide to buy a home and because they have no savings they tap into their 401. Thats money they will never pay back.

Umm, you're required by law to pay back that money within 10 years....and the consequences for not doing so is that it will be treated as a withdrawal with you owing Uncle Sam taxes on the distribution plus a 10% penalty on top of it.

Do you have statistics that shows most people don't pay back and that you are right?

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by saden1

Umm, you're required by law to pay back that money within 10 years....and the consequences for not doing so is that it will be treated as a withdrawal with you owing Uncle Sam taxes on the distribution plus a 10% penalty on top of it.

Do you have statistics that shows most people don't pay back and that you are right?

You may want to read the rules again. Its a hardship rule that allows the use of 401s for a down payment or last resort funding. Pay back is 5 to 30 yrs and can be as little as 60 days. I'll stand by my statement.

Rules for 401k Withdrawal for Home Purchase

The first rule of 401k withdrawal for home purchase is that you must be able to prove to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) officials that you are going through a financial hardship. Secondly, you should be able to prove that it is your last resort of fulfilling your financial need. You should not have any other funds available, that could suffice your financial needs. Thirdly, you are not allowed to withdraw anything above your financial need. Meaning, if you are required to make a down payment of $10,000 and you cannot arrange for own contribution, then you are allowed to withdraw only $10,000 from your 401k account (provided you have enough balance in it.). The fourth rule is that you should have executed all other options of taxable loans, so that 401k withdrawal is your last option of raising funds for home purchase. After your withdrawal, you cannot contribute to your 401k account for a span of 6 months.

How to Purchase a Home Using a 401k Withdrawal

The 401k regulations explicitly state that 401k withdrawal can be made only for a purchase of a first home. You cannot use this money to make a down payment for your second home. The money withdrawn from 401k is taxable. One important thing to remember, while applying for early 401k withdrawal is that, although the law permits the early withdrawal from 401k, it is not mandatory for the employers to offer such a provision in their plan. Hence, inquire with your human resources department, to know the provision in your individual plan. Also, beware of the penalties you are subjected to, upon the withdrawn amount. A study of IRS regulations, regarding 401k withdrawal for home purchase, may give you a clear idea regarding the taxes and penalty for early withdrawal of 401k funds. At times, you may notice that after paying taxes and penalties, you are only left with considerably less amount than your exact need. Hence, you might anyway have to arrange for funds to cover up the difference.

Implications of 401k Home Purchase Withdrawal

Withdrawing from your 401k funds is definitely not the wisest of all options. For one thing, you lose out on a large sum from your retirement funds, which can make your post retirement life less than secure. You unnecessarily have to bear the burden of taxes and penalties. Besides, you lose out on interest that would have incurred on the withdrawn amount. Hence, you should choose this option only when all the other doors have closed. Borrowing against 401k account may seem to be a good alternative, as it is free of tax and penalties. Besides, the interest accrued from your loan goes back to your account. The repayment span may be anywhere between 5 to 30 years. However, if you lose your job, you will have to repay the loan in as little as 60 days. Failure on your part may lead to penalties and taxes. The loan amount will be then considered as an early withdrawal.

Thus, you should weigh your options wisely, and choose one which can secure your future while still sufficing your current need. Hope this article on 401k withdrawal for home purchase was resourceful.
By Ashwini Kulkarni Sule

[saden1]

Originally Posted by firstdown

You may want to read the rules again. Its a hardship rule that allows the use of 401s for a down payment or last resort funding. Pay back is 5 to 30 yrs and can be as little as 60 days. I'll stand by my statement.

Rules for 401k Withdrawal for Home Purchase

The first rule of 401k withdrawal for home purchase is that you must be able to prove to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) officials that you are going through a financial hardship. Secondly, you should be able to prove that it is your last resort of fulfilling your financial need. You should not have any other funds available, that could suffice your financial needs. Thirdly, you are not allowed to withdraw anything above your financial need. Meaning, if you are required to make a down payment of $10,000 and you cannot arrange for own contribution, then you are allowed to withdraw only $10,000 from your 401k account (provided you have enough balance in it.). The fourth rule is that you should have executed all other options of taxable loans, so that 401k withdrawal is your last option of raising funds for home purchase. After your withdrawal, you cannot contribute to your 401k account for a span of 6 months.

How to Purchase a Home Using a 401k Withdrawal

The 401k regulations explicitly state that 401k withdrawal can be made only for a purchase of a first home. You cannot use this money to make a down payment for your second home. The money withdrawn from 401k is taxable. One important thing to remember, while applying for early 401k withdrawal is that, although the law permits the early withdrawal from 401k, it is not mandatory for the employers to offer such a provision in their plan. Hence, inquire with your human resources department, to know the provision in your individual plan. Also, beware of the penalties you are subjected to, upon the withdrawn amount. A study of IRS regulations, regarding 401k withdrawal for home purchase, may give you a clear idea regarding the taxes and penalty for early withdrawal of 401k funds. At times, you may notice that after paying taxes and penalties, you are only left with considerably less amount than your exact need. Hence, you might anyway have to arrange for funds to cover up the difference.

Implications of 401k Home Purchase Withdrawal

Withdrawing from your 401k funds is definitely not the wisest of all options. For one thing, you lose out on a large sum from your retirement funds, which can make your post retirement life less than secure. You unnecessarily have to bear the burden of taxes and penalties. Besides, you lose out on interest that would have incurred on the withdrawn amount. Hence, you should choose this option only when all the other doors have closed. Borrowing against 401k account may seem to be a good alternative, as it is free of tax and penalties. Besides, the interest accrued from your loan goes back to your account. The repayment span may be anywhere between 5 to 30 years. However, if you lose your job, you will have to repay the loan in as little as 60 days. Failure on your part may lead to penalties and taxes. The loan amount will be then considered as an early withdrawal.

Thus, you should weigh your options wisely, and choose one which can secure your future while still sufficing your current need. Hope this article on 401k withdrawal for home purchase was resourceful.
By Ashwini Kulkarni Sule

What exactly is your statement? People don't pay back the money they from their 401k? You shouldn't take money from your 401k to buy a home?


There are two ways to buy a home with money from your 401k, a) hardship withdrawal which is a taxable event along with a 10% penalty if you are under the age of 59.5 or b) borrow up to 50% from your 401k investments. Like you mentioned hardship withdrawal is a last resort because of the cost associate with it and most people don't go that route. Additionally, before you can do a hardship withdrawal you must first borrow the maximum allowed from you 401k and that's what people typically do. Now if you're borrowing money for the sake of buying a car, the money has to be paid back within 5 years, if you're borrowing money to buy a home the law allows you to payback the money within 10 years or longer. Utlimatly what's available to you is determined by the employer's plan so not every 401k plan is the same. Some plans won't let you borrow, some won't let you contribute while you have an outstanding loan. Some allow for repayment flexibility, others don't.

You are right in that the balance is due within 60 days if you lose your job. This is a risk people should be aware of before they jump in. Then again, if you lose your job you may have other issues to worry about than a 10% penalty. For me it wasn't much of a risk because I have huge amount of money in stock options that I could tap into at any point and easily pay back the loan. I could have sold those options but I choose not to because, well, my stock option value tripped since that time.

Bottom line, don't take distribution from your 401k, borrow from it....401k borrowing is a financial instrument that should be used wisely. Just like anything else in life, you aught to know the risks. If people can't pay it back, that's their own retirement money they are cannibalizing.


Here's a study on the issue:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_pap...RAND_WR799.pdf

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by saden1

Umm, you're required by law to pay back that money within 10 years....and the consequences for not doing so is that it will be treated as a withdrawal with you owing Uncle Sam taxes on the distribution plus a 10% penalty on top of it.

Do you have statistics that shows most people don't pay back and that you are right?

awww ****. i took out 10k from my 401k a couple years ago . . . id did take the money out to keep the power on, allow us to move to a smaller cheaper place . . .i hope i checked off the "hardship" box.

[mlmpetert]

Editorial from Aruthur Laffer on 999:

Arthur B. Laffer: Cain's Stimulating '9-9-9' Tax Reform - WSJ.com

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by saden1

401k contributions aren't taxed at all until they are withdrawn and there a lot of rules around it. For one thing you can borrow against it and not pay taxes or penalty on it so long as you pay it back within 5 years (except when buying a home). You are required to withdraw a minimum amount of it when you turn 70.5 (this requirement was suspended by congress for 2009 because of the economic downturn).

You are technacally suppose to be taxed on it at the tax bracket you were in at your last income generating position before retirement (It doesn't mean you can go get a job at McDonald's though to lower your tax bracket). There are some strategies you can employ to lower your taxes. For example, if you don't anticipate your tax bracket to be lower as you get older and near retirement it might be wise to convert your 401k to Roth IRA before you retire since isn't subjected to minimum distribution rules which could cost you in the long run.


Bottom line is the rules around 401k are quite generous and if you combine it with other financial instruments (i.e. whole life insurance) you can definitely lower your tax bill when you retire.

Interesting. Thanks for that info!