Updated: Hightower Torn ACL/Moss Out 5-7 Weeks

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Gotta agree with this. Unfortunatly at Moss injury, Stallworth's ineffectiveness and Gaffney's inconsistency...this is a perfect time to get the young guys in the line up. This actually could be a positive turning point, to get young guys in and give them a chance to grab and hold on into a starting spot. To even consider TO would be a massive, Vinny-like mistake. Lets give the young guys a chance to develop and see if they can spark a bottom-5-in-the-league offense.

The young guys should've been playing from day one and Stallworth and Gaffney shouldn't have been signed in the first place.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

The young guys should've been playing from day one and Stallworth and Gaffney shouldn't have been signed in the first place.

I agree, Stallworth should be cut and Kareem Moore activated.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

I agree, Stallworth should be cut and Kareem Moore activated.

actually surprised that hasn't happened yet.

[SBXVII]

SirClintonPortis,

Your just guessing. No different then everyone "thought" Beck would start and light it up proving that Grossman was as bad as everyone says he is and the savior Beck would change everything and this team would be back in the play off hunt.

Yeah.... that didn't happen, especially against probably the worst defense. So although you can make predictions off of old stats... no one really knows what he will do for us. All I was pointing out is that Hankerson is not doing any better and that considering other teams still might double him up that would leave someone else open or T.O. one on one. I'm not saying bring in T.O. cause he will change everything and he will set this team right. Heck I wouldn't even say that about Moss if he was healthy. No one player makes a whole team.

No different then I said Beck would be just as bad because of the WR's and because the coaching staff would not probably use him to the best of his abilities. Would T.O. come in and solve everything putting up a ton of yrds catching? I don't know, and honestly you really don't know. If the team used him for what he can do now, short to intermediate routes as a possession WR, then AA and Gaffney can go long with their speed. Could he start right away? he's been in the league long enough to know the routes. It would be more about terminology. Coaching staff gets him up to speed on 10 to 15 plays he might be helpful especially on 3rd downs just for starters.

People love to mention how he drops balls. Hello, we are not seeing anything different out of AA, Gaffney, Stallworth, Hankerson...etc. etc. So basically all I suggested was the team going out to see how healthy he is, if healthy then think about bringing him in as a replacement for Moss until he gets healthy. Stallworth has a hamstring injury for which he was out last week. Is he healthy? Is AA completely healthy? Hightower is out for the season. If T.O. looked good I'd think about bringing him in to fill Hightower's spot and play WR until Moss is healthy. Depending on how well or bad he did the team can decide what to do with him later. Cut him. Keep him. Whatever.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

SirClintonPortis,

Your just guessing. No different then everyone "thought" Beck would start and light it up proving that Grossman was as bad as everyone says he is and the savior Beck would change everything and this team would be back in the play off hunt.

Yeah.... that didn't happen, especially against probably the worst defense. So although you can make predictions off of old stats... no one really knows what he will do for us. All I was pointing out is that Hankerson is not doing any better and that considering other teams still might double him up that would leave someone else open or T.O. one on one. I'm not saying bring in T.O. cause he will change everything and he will set this team right. Heck I wouldn't even say that about Moss if he was healthy. No one player makes a whole team.

No different then I said Beck would be just as bad because of the WR's and because the coaching staff would not probably use him to the best of his abilities. Would T.O. come in and solve everything putting up a ton of yrds catching? I don't know, and honestly you really don't know. If the team used him for what he can do now, short to intermediate routes as a possession WR, then AA and Gaffney can go long with their speed. Could he start right away? he's been in the league long enough to know the routes. It would be more about terminology. Coaching staff gets him up to speed on 10 to 15 plays he might be helpful especially on 3rd downs just for starters.

Just like actuaries guess about the accident rate when calculating insurance premiums. Guessing the expected utilty from buying something is quite prevalent in a lot of subjects.

Descriptive statistics can be used to form ballpark estimates on data. This "guessing" is done by analysts for many more important things than football, biology and finance being two of the subjects that employ such things. I may not know exact values of the stats, but I can try to make a guess that is close.

Beck has had 2 years to learn the offense but he had absolutely no data whatsoever to form any projections "stat-based" projections. The only projections that could be made for John Beck is from empirical analysis, aka looking at tape, and even that was limited.

T.O, on the other hand, has data to work with. My high prediction on his performance is not far off from the average of his touchdowns(approximately 5) and yards(approximately 62) for the past three years. The standard deviation for his yards is 9.59. Most likely, he will contribute anywhere between 820 yards and 420 yards, and between 2 to 8 touchdowns.
So, far this is all just basic statistics. Now, one can delve even further and look into aspects of T.O's game to further narrow that range on what could be his "real" production here, but you can get some sense on what T.O's "outer limits" of production are. Then, the matter is about whether it's worth getting this kind of production over banking on unknowns that have no data to hint either way on how they are going to play both in the present and the future.

Leonard Hankerson has done nothing, hence no descriptive statistics can be used for analysis on what he might do production-wise. My point is why he is on the roster despite his giant goose-egg, and why he and every other prospect deserves a roster spot for US over a hedge like T.O. He is only on the roster because there's a small chance(VERY SMALL) he can provide a 7000+ yards in 7 years and provide many touchdowns in his career. Essentially, he is like an IPO stock you add to a portfolio to make big increases to your returns. Of course, he should not be the only "big gamble" on the roster since he is so likely to fail. What we should be doing is stuffing the roster full of other high-risk, high-reward prospects(up to a reasonable level, of course) so at least one of them sticks. What we need are players with huge returns, not hedges like T.O. Hankerson is just one of many attempts we should be trying to get a true #1. If he fails, so be it. Cut his ass and find another prospect, not hedges like T.O. The Draft and FA occurs every year. There is always opportunity to restock from those sources.

Besides, I highly doubt we need T.O to be the Wide Receiver Buddha for our young kids. Less athletic and successful WRs could also serve as a teacher and mentor to our young'uns since teaching football(or anything else, for that matter) is a whole different animal from playing football, and T.O is nutty enough that I'd stay away from him. Moss isn't going to IR yet; he could still be giving pointer on the sideline.

People love to mention how he drops balls. Hello, we are not seeing anything different out of AA, Gaffney, Stallworth, Hankerson...etc. etc. So basically all I suggested was the team going out to see how healthy he is, if healthy then think about bringing him in as a replacement for Moss until he gets healthy. Stallworth has a hamstring injury for which he was out last week. Is he healthy? Is AA completely healthy? Hightower is out for the season. If T.O. looked good I'd think about bringing him in to fill Hightower's spot and play WR until Moss is healthy. Depending on how well or bad he did the team can decide what to do with him later. Cut him. Keep him. Whatever.

One of your points is that he is to play the role of possession receiver. One of the qualities a possession receiver must have is sure hands since that helps move the chains. Being in a bromance with your QB is also required(this is a joke). Having a high frequency of drops(over 20 in some years) is one sign that a player is not suitable for a possession type role. He might contribute elsewhere, but not in a possession receiver role.

[Lotus]

For you T.O. fans...no one attended his audition today.

T.O. will continue to play the waiting game after workout - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

[sdskinsfan2001]

With Moss being out what does everyone think about possibly bringing in Bernard Berrian? He was just cut by the Vikings, and he has some good speed that can be used to stretch the field. It might be worth a shot. He is only 30 so he could possibly have a couple years left of elite speed. I wouldnt be against the move, but I can also see letting the younger guys get some PT.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by sdskinsfan2001

With Moss being out what does everyone think about possibly bringing in Bernard Berrian? He was just cut by the Vikings, and he has some good speed that can be used to stretch the field. It might be worth a shot. He is only 30 so he could possibly have a couple years left of elite speed. I wouldnt be against the move, but I can also see letting the younger guys get some PT.

Nope. What the others have said. Let the young guys prove their mettle. Also Bernard Berrian sucks. When you're a healthy deactivation for a game it's usually a sign that you are not that good.

[CRedskinsRule]

I was a big supporter of bringing TO in when he left Dallas/Bills on a 1 year basis. But now we have young receivers that we have to get in the mix for playing time. Beck may not be the answer, but TO - at this point - is clearly not. He is old, and I think the fact that no team has interest proves the point that his skills have clearly declined. I would rather go through this year getting our young receivers time on the field, so that whoever we draft will have some targets with experience.

A side note, I think Beck played well for his first start in 4 years. Lets see if he can get going with some time and experience, remember now he will be playing with nearly all the same WR's he had been practicing with. I still expect good, not great, things from him.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I was a big supporter of bringing TO in when he left Dallas/Bills on a 1 year basis. But now we have young receivers that we have to get in the mix for playing time. Beck may not be the answer, but TO - at this point - is clearly not. He is old, and I think the fact that no team has interest proves the point that his skills have clearly declined. I would rather go through this year getting our young receivers time on the field, so that whoever we draft will have some targets with experience.

A side note, I think Beck played well for his first start in 4 years. Lets see if he can get going with some time and experience, remember now he will be playing with nearly all the same WR's he had been practicing with. I still expect good, not great, things from him.

Totally agree with the getting younger. Just pointing out that if they want a WR that should already know the routes (not the terminology though) T.O. might should get a look. Older Vet to support the young guys. Thats what Moss was.

I get this bad feeling I watched the wrong Redskins game last weekend cause I'm totally suprised hearing people thinking Beck did well? He did no better then Grossman and committed the same mistakes. and the best answer to that is .."he did well for not having played in 4 yrs." Come on folks, unless I missed it he has practiced for 4 yrs and he has played in the preseason in the last 4 yrs and played rather well in our preseason games. He was not sitting on the couch at home waiting for a call, I'd definitly feel sorry for him if that was the case and probably feel like others feel that his outing was not too bad.

Lets call it what it is.... fans didn't like Grossman, didn't want Grossman, and found every reason in the book to blame the "teams" performance on him. Every single misque was Grossmans fault. Now that he's out, and the favoured QB (Beck) is in and the performance is exactly the same, fans come up with excuses.
"Oh, he was rusty"
"Oh, he was off balance"
"Oh, it was the WR's fault"
"Oh, the OL caused the fumble for not blocking"
"Oh, the WR's are dropping balls"
"Grossman did bad against bad or injured teams"
etc. etc.

Hello, Beck did just as bad, 1 INT (should have been 2) and 1 fumble. Against probably the worst defense.

Grossman is not the long term answer especially at 31yo. Beck having a similar outing against a bad defense is not the long term answer either at 30yo. So, if you want to start the young guns and see what they got and can do ya might as well throw in Jonathan Crompton at QB who's only 24. Lets see what he's got in order to decide if we definitly have to draft a QB next yr.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Totally agree with the getting younger. Just pointing out that if they want a WR that should already know the routes (not the terminology though) T.O. might should get a look. Older Vet to support the young guys. Thats what Moss was.

I get this bad feeling I watched the wrong Redskins game last weekend cause I'm totally suprised hearing people thinking Beck did well? He did no better then Grossman and committed the same mistakes. and the best answer to that is .."he did well for not having played in 4 yrs." Come on folks, unless I missed it he has practiced for 4 yrs and he has played in the preseason in the last 4 yrs and played rather well in our preseason games. He was not sitting on the couch at home waiting for a call, I'd definitly feel sorry for him if that was the case and probably feel like others feel that his outing was not too bad.

Lets call it what it is.... fans didn't like Grossman, didn't want Grossman, and found every reason in the book to blame the "teams" performance on him. Every single misque was Grossmans fault. Now that he's out, and the favoured QB (Beck) is in and the performance is exactly the same, fans come up with excuses.
"Oh, he was rusty"
"Oh, he was off balance"
"Oh, it was the WR's fault"
"Oh, the OL caused the fumble for not blocking"
"Oh, the WR's are dropping balls"
"Grossman did bad against bad or injured teams"
etc. etc.

Hello, Beck did just as bad, 1 INT (should have been 2) and 1 fumble. Against probably the worst defense.

Grossman is not the long term answer especially at 31yo. Beck having a similar outing against a bad defense is not the long term answer either at 30yo. So, if you want to start the young guns and see what they got and can do ya might as well throw in Jonathan Crompton at QB who's only 24. Lets see what he's got in order to decide if we definitly have to draft a QB next yr.

Can't agree w/much of your evaluation of Beck's game. His stat line of 1 interception is appropriate, since he got away w/one & then the one he threw was debatable as to whose fault it was. It evens out. F. Davis said a couple last week were his fault, but Rex had a couple that were dropped v. Philly, don't forget that.

Sure Beck didn't make all the reads well, but he made plays moving in & out of the pocket that Rex is almost entirely incapable of. He didn't lose this game & yes, he did have a few big drops by recievers that could've made it a different game.

I saw a QB sunday that was a pretty big upgrade to what we had before. He'll have his bad games, he's not a great qb by any stretch, but he gives us more of a chance to win.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

Can't agree w/much of your evaluation of Beck's game. His stat line of 1 interception is appropriate, since he got away w/one & then the one he threw was debatable as to whose fault it was. It evens out. F. Davis said a couple last week were his fault, but Rex had a couple that were dropped v. Philly, don't forget that.

Sure Beck didn't make all the reads well, but he made plays moving in & out of the pocket that Rex is almost entirely incapable of. He didn't lose this game & yes, he did have a few big drops by recievers that could've made it a different game.

I saw a QB sunday that was a pretty big upgrade to what we had before. He'll have his bad games, he's not a great qb by any stretch, but he gives us more of a chance to win.

I'm with you.

I thought Beck played well enough to where I'm curious to see what he can do as he gets more comfortable out there. Grossman is a known commodity, and we know what his ceiling is. Beck is still unknown in that regard.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I'm with you.

I thought Beck played well enough to where I'm curious to see what he can do as he gets more comfortable out there. Grossman is a known commodity, and we know what his ceiling is. Beck is still unknown in that regard.

What makes someone a "known commodity"? the fact he's taken a team to a SB? or the fact he throws INT's? Beck is a known commodity also... he's thrown INT's, has not stuck as the starter in his two previous teams, and has not taken anyone to a SB.

Grossman=Bad.
Beck=Just as Bad.

On top of that they both are 30 or 31. Not much difference. Expect more of the same this weekend.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

Can't agree w/much of your evaluation of Beck's game. His stat line of 1 interception is appropriate, since he got away w/one & then the one he threw was debatable as to whose fault it was. It evens out. F. Davis said a couple last week were his fault, but Rex had a couple that were dropped v. Philly, don't forget that.

Sure Beck didn't make all the reads well, but he made plays moving in & out of the pocket that Rex is almost entirely incapable of. He didn't lose this game & yes, he did have a few big drops by recievers that could've made it a different game.

I saw a QB sunday that was a pretty big upgrade to what we had before. He'll have his bad games, he's not a great qb by any stretch, but he gives us more of a chance to win.

We definitly watched two different games. The only difference I witnessed was Beck's mobility which was not on display for the INT, almost INT, and fumble. He was in the pocket. Just like Grossman was for his mistakes.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Totally agree with the getting younger. Just pointing out that if they want a WR that should already know the routes (not the terminology though) T.O. might should get a look. Older Vet to support the young guys. Thats what Moss was.

I get this bad feeling I watched the wrong Redskins game last weekend cause I'm totally suprised hearing people thinking Beck did well? He did no better then Grossman and committed the same mistakes. and the best answer to that is .."he did well for not having played in 4 yrs." Come on folks, unless I missed it he has practiced for 4 yrs and he has played in the preseason in the last 4 yrs and played rather well in our preseason games. He was not sitting on the couch at home waiting for a call, I'd definitly feel sorry for him if that was the case and probably feel like others feel that his outing was not too bad.

Lets call it what it is.... fans didn't like Grossman, didn't want Grossman, and found every reason in the book to blame the "teams" performance on him. Every single misque was Grossmans fault. Now that he's out, and the favoured QB (Beck) is in and the performance is exactly the same, fans come up with excuses.
"Oh, he was rusty"
"Oh, he was off balance"
"Oh, it was the WR's fault"
"Oh, the OL caused the fumble for not blocking"
"Oh, the WR's are dropping balls"
"Grossman did bad against bad or injured teams"
etc. etc.

Hello, Beck did just as bad, 1 INT (should have been 2) and 1 fumble. Against probably the worst defense.

Grossman is not the long term answer especially at 31yo. Beck having a similar outing against a bad defense is not the long term answer either at 30yo. So, if you want to start the young guns and see what they got and can do ya might as well throw in Jonathan Crompton at QB who's only 24. Lets see what he's got in order to decide if we definitly have to draft a QB next yr.

I hate getting lumped in with "fans". Fact of the matter is (regardless of my avatar sig) I would support Grossman if he is in, and Beck if he is in. Neither is a top 10 qb, and each gives some positives the other doesn't have. The one difference, is we don't know that Beck can be a starter or backup. Rex is a definitely a quality back up. Since this is the 2nd year in what should be a 3 year plan, as I see it, and next year we will bring in the "true qb", it's more important to me at this point, without entirely giving up on catching lightning in a bottle, that we know who will be the 2nd string qb next year, and if we can count on any of these young receivers to step into a spotlight role.

As for TO and bringing in a vet presence, well Gaffney clearly can be that player, he is a aged vet with apparently good locker room skills, and a good attitude. Moss isn't on IR so he is going to be in the meetings, working with the young WR's, and hopefully encouraging them. Honestly I could see this being a great opportunity for him to step up and be a serious mentor especially to TA (I think) who has said often that he wants to model himself after Santana.

Rex is Rex, Beck is Beck, neither are awesomeness incarnate.