There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Previously banned islamist party 'Ennahda' has won the election in Tunisia. How long until we see this country as a shining example of what islam brings to humanity once Secularism has been abandoned?

Party leader, Mr. Ghannouchi, stated "We believe that all Tunisian people can survive peacefully within a moderate vision of islam which can be compatible with democracy."

There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible once islam sinks its fangs in.

Your thoughts?

Your statement is blatantly false. Turkey provides just one of several examples. Turkey has been a democracy for almost a century - since the end of WWI. Turkey is also a bastion of Islam, having provided the capital for the Ottoman empire (which was Muslim) and providing important Islamic pilgrimage sites, such as in Konya. Turkey is overwhelmingly Islamic in demographics and the Islamic presence is quite active. Yet Turkey remains a stable democracy which is an associate (and likely soon a full) member of the European Union.

There are several other examples which could be mentioned: Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Mubarak's Egypt to a limited extent, and more.

And certainly you know that democratic theory is built right into Sunni Islam. That is, since Muhammad said, 'My community will never agree on an error," ijma or democratic consensus has been a Sunni ideal since the beginning of the tradition.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Your statement is blatantly false.

Which statement?

Originally Posted by Lotus

Turkey provides just one of several examples.

By the good graces of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Turkey has been a Secular (barely still due to the succesful lobbying of moslems) Republic since 29 October 1923. He ensured that Turkey was made a progressive SECULAR country. Yes, the majority of Turkey is moslem but the full impact of that scourge is yet to be felt. Soon, very soon though. Just in time to complete the downfall of Europe.

Originally Posted by Lotus

There are several other examples which could be mentioned: Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Mubarak's Egypt to a limited extent, and more.

Indonesia is going through a period of religious turmoil as churches are attacked and then blocked from being rebuilt or repair in line with islamic tenets.

India? Hindu India?

Bangladesh? Where the High Court had to remind the majority moslem population back in '72 that they were a secular state because of the brutality meted out to women? That Bangladesh?

EGYPT??????? Home of the Moslem Brotherhood?

Originally Posted by Lotus

And certainly you know that democratic theory is built right into Sunni Islam.

Which of the four established schools of sunni islam are you referring to? Also which philosophical tradition are you suggesting is the guiding light? Athari, Ash'ari or Maturidi? Democratic? GTFOOH!

Originally Posted by Lotus

That is, since Muhammad said, 'My community will never agree on an error," ijma or democratic consensus has been a Sunni ideal since the beginning of the tradition.

The huge, raging clue in that quote is the simple but telling phrase 'My community'.....Kufr beware!

Most Sunni (please feel free to correct me) use the Bukhari Hadith for guidance, correct?

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

So to recap: You're wrong, couldn't be more wrong unless you were lying.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Which statement?

By the good graces of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Turkey has been a Secular (barely still due to the succesful lobbying of moslems) Republic since 29 October 1923. He ensured that Turkey was made a progressive SECULAR country. Yes, the majority of Turkey is moslem but the full impact of that scourge is yet to be felt. Soon, very soon though. Just in time to complete the downfall of Europe.

Indonesia is going through a period of religious turmoil as churches are attacked and then blocked from being rebuilt or repair in line with islamic tenets.

India? Hindu India?

Bangladesh? Where the High Court had to remind the majority moslem population back in '72 that they were a secular state because of the brutality meted out to women? That Bangladesh?

EGYPT??????? Home of the Moslem Brotherhood?

Which of the four established schools of sunni islam are you referring to? Also which philosophical tradition are you suggesting is the guiding light? Athari, Ash'ari or Maturidi? Democratic? GTFOOH!

The huge, raging clue in that quote is the simple but telling phrase 'My community'.....Kufr beware!

Most Sunni (please feel free to correct me) use the Bukhari Hadith for guidance, correct?

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

So to recap: You're wrong, couldn't be more wrong unless you were lying.

1. Which statement? I guess the one which I bolded.

2. Correct, politically Turkey is a secular democracy. You are making my point here. It has been a secular democracy 88 years. It is also actively Muslim in terms of the religious practices of the population. Has been for about 1,000 years. Just because it is referred to politically as a "secular" democracy does not mean there is no religion. Therefore, as I type these words, Islam and democracy have a nearly century-long track record of being compatible in Turkey. So we see that when you said, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible," you were mistaken.

You can speculate about the future of Turkey all you want. But my argument is not built on speculation - I am providing hard evidence.

So my initial point, that you made a false statement, remains established. Evidence, not speculation, shows that it is simply untrue to say, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible." I will respond to the rest of your post just to defend myself:

3. Religious intolerance in Indonesia does not mean that Islam and democracy are incompatible there, just as religious intolerance in the USA does not mean that Christianity and democracy cannot coexist here. It just means that there are some intolerant people. When the mosque in Tennessee was burned last year, did that mean that Christianity and democracy are incompatible? No.

4. India. India consists of more than Hindus. There are more than 220 million Muslims in India, making India the world's third largest Muslim country. India is also a democracy. So 220 million Muslims in India coexist with democracy.

5. Bangladesh. Same argument as Indonesia. If the religious intolerance of some invalidates democracy then democracy does not exist anywhere on the planet. Religious intolerance exists in some form everywhere.

6. Egypt. Just because they have the Muslim Brotherhood does not mean that they haven't had democratic elections, albeit imperfect. Does the presence of the KKK make the USA not a democracy? No. You make a non-argument about Egypt.

7. The democratic impulse in Islam which I mentioned pre-dates the division into legal schools. Abu Bakr, who was the first caliph (or leader after Muhammad), was put in his position by democratic election. Thus democracy has remained a paradigmatic ideal because Abu Bakr was the first of the Rightly Guided Caliphs as well as Muhammad's bff. Later caliphs turned into hereditary monarchs but still had sham "elections" for their sons out of respect for this precedent. The hadith which you produced does not change this fact.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by Lotus

2. Correct, politically Turkey is a secular democracy. You are making my point here. It has been a secular democracy 88 years.

It's been a secular Democracy despite not because of islam.

Originally Posted by Lotus

It is also actively Muslim in terms of the religious practices of the population. Has been for about 1,000 years. Just because it is referred to politically as a "secular" democracy does not mean there is no religion.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Lotus

Therefore, as I type these words, Islam and democracy have a nearly century-long track record of being compatible in Turkey.

Wholly incompatible, at odds and in a prolonged power struggle which islam is now beginning to win.

Originally Posted by Lotus

So we see that when you said, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible," you were mistaken. .

You have still not given an example of islam and Democracy being compatible. It's generally a Theocracy with the facade of democracy.

Originally Posted by Lotus

You can speculate about the future of Turkey all you want. But my argument is not built on speculation - I am providing hard evidence..

You have provided no evidence, merely your opinion.

Originally Posted by Lotus

So my initial point, that you made a false statement, remains established.

Only in your opinion.

Originally Posted by Lotus

Evidence, not speculation, shows that it is simply untrue to say, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible." I will respond to the rest of your post just to defend myself:

Originally Posted by Lotus

3. Religious intolerance in Indonesia does not mean that Islam and democracy are incompatible there, just as religious intolerance in the USA does not mean that Christianity and democracy cannot coexist here. It just means that there are some intolerant people. When the mosque in Tennessee was burned last year, did that mean that Christianity and democracy are incompatible? No.

As islam is a political system as well as being a cult I don't think your comparison is valid. One mosque in Tennessee? Compared to the worldwide stealth imposition of the Pact of Umar? Now I'll be the first to admit a lot of mosques worldwide get destroyed, but it's by moslem-on-moslem violence. Rarely is it by another religious group or my lot.

Originally Posted by Lotus

4. India. India consists of more than Hindus. There are more than 220 million Muslims in India, making India the world's third largest Muslim country. India is also a democracy. So 220 million Muslims in India coexist with democracy.

Most give the figure as 165M but even at 220M they are still less than 15% to 80% + Hindu. Nice use of a large number to give credence to your claim. How did Pakistan come to be partitioned from India? If you'd like an instant replay observe Kashmir. More overwhelming evidence that moslems, when they reach a certain %, cease playing 'nice'. Cline's observation, from 2008 (I think):
Below two percent Muslims are well-behaved citizens and cause little apparent trouble for the host society.
At two percent and three percent Muslims begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs.
From five percent on Muslims exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They push for the introduction of halal ("clean" by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves--along with threats for failure to comply (United States, Switzerland, Sweden). At this point, Muslims work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, or Islamic law. (England, Netherlands, Philippines).
When Muslims reach 10 percent of the population, they increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris--car burning). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam, Denmark--Mohammed cartoons, murder of Theo van Gogh).
After reaching 20 percent of a population expect hair-trigger rioting, Jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning (Indonesia, Ethiopia).
After 40 percent you find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare (Bosnia, Chad).
From 60 percent you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and jizya, the tax placed on [conquered] infidels (Sudan, Albania).
After 80 percent, expect to find state-run ethnic cleansing and genocide (Syria, Egypt, UAE).

Originally Posted by Lotus

5. Bangladesh. Same argument as Indonesia. If the religious intolerance of some invalidates democracy then democracy does not exist anywhere on the planet. Religious intolerance exists in some form everywhere.

And you'll get the same answer. The madrassars are the lifeblood of radical (or to me mainstream, old-school) islam and the supposed moderate form is just a convenient facade for jizya from unsuspecting Western states.

Originally Posted by Lotus

6. Egypt. Just because they have the Muslim Brotherhood does not mean that they haven't had democratic elections, albeit imperfect. Does the presence of the KKK make the USA not a democracy? No. You make a non-argument about Egypt.

When has the KKK represented 39% of the voting public in an election? That's what the hilariously named Freedom and Justice Party are at right now and that's with almost 40% 'undecided'. That was a Straw Man and a pretty weak one too.

Originally Posted by Lotus

7. The democratic impulse in Islam which I mentioned pre-dates the division into legal schools. Abu Bakr, who was the first caliph (or leader after Muhammad), was put in his position by democratic election. Thus democracy has remained a paradigmatic ideal because Abu Bakr was the first of the Rightly Guided Caliphs as well as Muhammad's bff. Later caliphs turned into hereditary monarchs but still had sham "elections" for their sons out of respect for this precedent. The hadith which you produced does not change this fact.

What kind of representation do women get under this 'democracy'? And Dhimmis?

Riiiiiight!

I sincerely apologize for taking so long to respond, I am able to look in anonymously on WP but can't post. I eagerly await your response.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

So to recap: You're wrong, couldn't be more wrong unless you were lying.

do you REALLY want to start bible wars? you knows the bible says that divorced women can never re-marry, that rape is the victim's fault and that a women who cheats (including rape victims) should be stoned to death right? pre-martial sex - stoning. using the lords name in vain - stoning. worshipping another god - stoning (hmm that's funny, and eerily like your worthless arguement). disobeying your parents - stoning. breaking sabbath - stoning. and of course, as it is written, it shall be done.


if you want book/verses, here:
1 Kings 21:10
Numbers 15:32-56
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Deuteronomy 13:5-10
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
Deuteronomy 22:13-21
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
Leviticus 24:16


Its amazing how so much of the vocal anti-islam crowd is soo very ignorant of the parallels in the bible - this is a "christian democracy" more or less if your talking about general morals and majority beliefs and all that.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by That Guy

Its amazing how so much of the vocal anti-islam crowd is soo very ignorant of the parallels in the bible - this is a "christian democracy" more or less if your talking about general morals and majority beliefs and all that.

As Hog1 mentioned, all Old Testament verses you're quoting. Nothing but contrasts in the New Testament.

Try being a Jew or Christian in the Muslim "democracies". Hint; do a little research on the Copts in Egypt.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

As Hog1 mentioned, all Old Testament verses you're quoting. Nothing but contrasts in the New Testament.

Try being a Jew or Christian in the Muslim "democracies". Hint; do a little research on the Copts in Egpt.

You are correct that the Copts, and others, suffer repression in some Muslim lands. That is a reprehensible reality.

But it is also true that Muslims suffer intolerance and discrimination, sometimes violently, in France, the UK, the USA, and other "Christian" places. Religious intolerance is sadly ubiquitous. So the problem is not just Islam vs. democracy.

Put differently, if the presence of religious intolerance indicates "incompatibility" with democracy then democracy is incompatible everywhere on the planet.

The problem is that unfortunately there are close-minded, hate-filled, and sometimes violent people everywhere.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Lotus

You are correct that the Copts, and others, suffer repression in some Muslim lands. That is a reprehensible reality.

But it is also true that Muslims suffer intolerance and discrimination, sometimes violently, in France, the UK, the USA, and other "Christian" places. Religious intolerance is sadly ubiquitous. So the problem is not just Islam vs. democracy.

Put differently, if the presence of religious intolerance indicates "incompatibility" with democracy then democracy is incompatible everywhere on the planet.

The problem is that unfortunately there are close-minded, hate-filled, and sometimes violent people everywhere.

No, that is not the problem with me, the people that I know and I do not believe this country as a whole. I doubt that is the problem in the UK, France as well. And at what time does discrimination and intolerance open the door for mass murder.....Repeatedly and unendingly in the name of Allah??
I am tired of the terrorist nature of the Jihadist hiding behind some idiotic pretense of the Islamic religion while they bomb, execute and maim innocents (Oh and I left out "behead" on the internet) without regard to woman...and even children. That is the problem with the......Peaceful nature of the Muslim....
Do all Muslims fit in that category...NO. I am sure they are but a small percentage, but they are being allowed to speak and act for the many millions that are truly peace loving.
I personally could care less who you are or what you believe. Be a good neighbor, Don't kill people, Don't F.. with anybody...have a nice day.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Hog1

No, that is not the problem with me, the people that I know and I do not believe this country as a whole. I doubt that is the problem in the UK, France as well. And at what time does discrimination and intolerance open the door for mass murder.....Repeatedly and unendingly in the name of Allah??
I am tired of the terrorist nature of the Jihadist hiding behind some idiotic pretense of the Islamic religion while they bomb, execute and maim innocents (Oh and I left out "behead" on the internet) without regard to woman...and even children.

I think you just described the Catholic church and christianity since it's induction into humanity. Irony to say the least.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Hog1

No, that is not the problem with me, the people that I know and I do not believe this country as a whole. I doubt that is the problem in the UK, France as well. And at what time does discrimination and intolerance open the door for mass murder.....Repeatedly and unendingly in the name of Allah??
I am tired of the terrorist nature of the Jihadist hiding behind some idiotic pretense of the Islamic religion while they bomb, execute and maim innocents (Oh and I left out "behead" on the internet) without regard to woman...and even children. That is the problem with the......Peaceful nature of the Muslim....
Do all Muslims fit in that category...NO. I am sure they are but a small percentage, but they are being allowed to speak and act for the many millions that are truly peace loving.
I personally could care less who you are or what you believe. Be a good neighbor, Don't kill people, Don't F.. with anybody...have a nice day.

I agree that Islamic terrorism is a terrible scourge.

But what was mentioned above is something different: local neighborhood anti-Coptic repression in Egypt and similar realities. This problem is structurally similar to mosque burnings in Tennessee. It is a problem of local intolerance rather than global terrorism.

In the end I agree with you. Violence resulting from religious intolerance has no place in any society.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Lotus

But it is also true that Muslims suffer intolerance and discrimination, sometimes violently, in France, the UK, the USA, and other "Christian" places. Religious intolerance is sadly ubiquitous. So the problem is not just Islam vs. democracy.

The difference in France, UK, and here is that people that perpetrate violence against others in the name of religion are treated as they should be....as criminals.

In many Muslim countries violence against those of other religions is sometimes either sanctioned by the gov't or purposely not investigated/prosecuted.

The problem is that unfortunately there are close-minded, hate-filled, and sometimes violent people everywhere.

Agree, very true and very unfortunate.

[saden1]

When did democracy become synonymous with christianity and the west? Did I miss the class where they taught the greeks were jesus worshiping and blond blue eyed much like him?

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

The difference in France, UK, and here is that people that perpetrate violence against others in the name of religion are treated as they should be....as criminals.

In many Muslim countries violence against those of other religions is sometimes either sanctioned by the gov't or purposely not investigated/prosecuted.

Agree, very true and very unfortunate.

I agree with the part about problems with government collusion.

Ex-regimes in both Egypt and Tunisia had reps for repressing Islam. Once the regimes fell, a great deal of pro-Islamic emotion was released. Some of this emotion is wholesome but some is dysfunctional.

For example, the feeling among some Muslims in Egypt was that Mubarak went easy on Copts and several Copts had seats in Mubarak's government. So to hate Mubarak, to some people, is to hate Copts. To erase Mubarak's legacy is to erase Copts. The same reality exists for Egypt's Jews.

However, in both Egypt and Tunisia there are sizeable numbers of folks who prefer secular democracy to either an Iranian Islamic model or, in the cases we are discussing, mob rule by Islam. The Arab Spring revolts were driven more by a striving for democracy than they were driven by calls for Islamic government. As emotions settle, the questions will be less "How to we erase traces of Mubarak or Ben Ali?" and more "How do we create a beneficial new society?" There is every reason to believe that moderates and toleration will then gain more voice and more power and the current ugliness will subside.

[Gary84Clark]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

As Hog1 mentioned, all Old Testament verses you're quoting. Nothing but contrasts in the New Testament.

Try being a Jew or Christian in the Muslim "democracies". Hint; do a little research on the Copts in Egypt.

Copts in Egypt are nothing like evangelicals in America. Two totally different religions.