Meet The Candidates: 2012 GOP Thread

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Who would make a good candidate? This guy.

Political Issues that Matter - Ralph Nader's Views on the Issues

Ralph Nader, who's never received over 3% of the vote in a National election, and normally less than 1%. The anti-corporate champion who's a multi-millionaire.....based off contributions to his non-profits and stock portfolio, including over $ 1M in Cisco stock. As a network engineer I'm sure you're aware of Cisco's heavy-handed corporate practices to dominate the market.

Archive | December 4, 2000 | Ralph Nader, Philanthropist: Is the anti-corporate crusader funding his own nonprofit network?

Ralph Nader (3) | Personal Finance Disclosure | OpenSecrets

Business | Nader discloses finances; net worth $3.8 million | Seattle Times Newspaper

And one of Nader's first claims about the Corsair having a defective rear suspension and rolling over were proved false. The Corsair went out of production...but Nader made money on his book.

Corvair Handling and Stability

But the rest of us are blind.

saden...good call, right on point.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Ralph Nader, who's never received over 3% of the vote in a National election, and normally less than 1%. The anti-corporate champion who's a multi-millionaire.....based off contributions to his non-profits and stock portfolio, including over $ 1M in Cisco stock. As a network engineer I'm sure you're aware of Cisco's heavy-handed corporate practices to dominate the market.

Archive | December 4, 2000 | Ralph Nader, Philanthropist: Is the anti-corporate crusader funding his own nonprofit network?

Ralph Nader (3) | Personal Finance Disclosure | OpenSecrets

Business | Nader discloses finances; net worth $3.8 million | Seattle Times Newspaper

And one of Nader's first claims about the Corsair having a defective rear suspension and rolling over were proved false. The Corsair went out of production...but Nader made money on his book.

Corvair Handling and Stability

But the rest of us are blind.

saden...good call, right on point.

I am always weary of people who utter the phrase "if you read my book [...]" when talking about their policy positions. I don't think I have ever seen an interview by Nadar where he doesn't mention his book. He is living the american dream selling his ideas.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by saden1

I am always weary of people who utter the phrase "if you read my book [...]" when talking about their policy positions. I don't think I have ever seen an interview by Nadar where he doesn't mention his book. He is living the american dream selling his ideas.

You haven't seen many interviews then.

Ralph Nader "The Tea Party Now Is Basically The...

People see what they want to see.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

You haven't seen many interviews then.

Ralph Nader "The Tea Party Now Is Basically The Corporatist Wing Of The Republican Party" - YouTube

People see what they want to see.

You absolutely right, I couldn't get past his incoherent speech.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Ralph Nader, who's never received over 3% of the vote in a National election, and normally less than 1%. The anti-corporate champion who's a multi-millionaire.....based off contributions to his non-profits and stock portfolio, including over $ 1M in Cisco stock. As a network engineer I'm sure you're aware of Cisco's heavy-handed corporate practices to dominate the market.

Archive | December 4, 2000 | Ralph Nader, Philanthropist: Is the anti-corporate crusader funding his own nonprofit network?

Ralph Nader (3) | Personal Finance Disclosure | OpenSecrets

Business | Nader discloses finances; net worth $3.8 million | Seattle Times Newspaper

And one of Nader's first claims about the Corsair having a defective rear suspension and rolling over were proved false. The Corsair went out of production...but Nader made money on his book.

Corvair Handling and Stability

But the rest of us are blind.

saden...good call, right on point.

Typical Republican smear tactics. What you have shown me is nothing. Absolutely nothing. So what the guy is net worth at 3.8 million. Did you bother to read those articles? He gets his money from speeches and other works he does. He gives a ton of money away, and doesn't spend much either.

Nader, 66 and single, said he has made $200,000 to $300,000 a year just on speeches for 30 years. Income from writings, television appearances and interest is on top of that. But he said he lives on $25,000.

He last owned a car (a '49 Studebaker) in the late '50s. He went years without a television set but now has a tiny black-and-white; reception is an adventure. He rents an apartment near DuPont Circle and often stays at the family home in Winsted, Conn. He still taps out his books on what he calls a "perilous" Underwood. He keeps meaning to buy a new ribbon.

Nader has plowed millions into his projects, including the establishment of Public Interest Research Groups in 22 states. He has established several research centers devoted to health and safety, taken on the standardized-test industry and championed Native American rights, child protection and solar-energy education.

More recently, he has put about $200,000 into organizing civic-action projects at Princeton University, from which he graduated in 1955, and Harvard Law School, from which he graduated in 1958.

...but lets not look at the issues he supports and lets go for the Republican mantra of...."OOOO LOOK AT THIS IRRELEVANT THING OVER HERE!!"...and find something he failed at and bring it to the forefront. Who gives a shit if he was wrong about some car. In fact, scanning the wikipedia (uggh..I know) of the event, "However, former GM executive John DeLorean asserted in On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors (1979) that Nader's criticisms were valid."

Jesus christ on a cracker. Stop watching Faux news please. It's rotting your brain. You debate exactly like they do. Ignore the issues and go after something irrelevant.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Typical Republican smear tactics. What you have shown me is nothing. Absolutely nothing. So what the guy is net worth at 3.8 million. Did you bother to read those articles? He gets his money from speeches and other works he does. He gives a ton of money away, and doesn't spend much either.

Ah yes, whenever hit with facts that are counter to your position resort to the "Republican smear tactics" line. Maybe you should read the articles.

You don't find the hypocrisy of a guy who is the champion of anti-corporate policies, yet he's become a millionaire giving speeches that are paid for by corporate or special interests and he invests in corporate stock (as of 2000)....in particular Cisco, Wal-mart, Occidental Petroleum, General Dynamics, Bristoll Meyers Squibb.

You find no hypocrisy in a guy who says, In a June 2000 interview with the Washington Post, the stocks he chose were “the most neutral-type companies … No. 1, they’re not monopolists and No. 2, they don’t produce land mines, napalm, weapons.”....yet he's invested in Cisco, one of the worst monolpolists in the tech industry and General Dynamics (through Fidelity Magellan Fund) who certainly builds lots of weapons.

...but lets not look at the issues he supports and lets go for the Republican mantra of...."OOOO LOOK AT THIS IRRELEVANT THING OVER HERE!!"...and find something he failed at and bring it to the forefront. Who gives a shit if he was wrong about some car. In fact, scanning the wikipedia (uggh..I know) of the event, "However, former GM executive John DeLorean asserted in On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors (1979) that Nader's criticisms were valid."

I would say false accusations that led to a model line of car ending production is certainly not irrelevant to GM, or the workers supporting the Corvair. I would also say that making the serious level of accusations leveled at GM.....and then being PROVED wrong by not only the NHTSA, but an independent panel of engineers, irreparably damage Nader's objective credibility.

LOL at referencing DeLorean, certainly he had no ax to grind (or books to sell) with GM.

Jesus christ on a cracker. Stop watching Faux news please. It's rotting your brain. You debate exactly like they do. Ignore the issues and go after something irrelevant.

I'm sorry, I guess multiple, documented, factual, accounts from numerous sources is "Faux News". My brain must be too rotted to get that.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Ah yes, whenever hit with facts that are counter to your position resort to the "Republican smear tactics" line. Maybe you should read the articles.

You don't find the hypocrisy of a guy who is the champion of anti-corporate policies, yet he's become a millionaire giving speeches that are paid for by corporate or special interests and he invests in corporate stock (as of 2000)....in particular Cisco, Wal-mart, Occidental Petroleum, General Dynamics, Bristoll Meyers Squibb.

You find no hypocrisy in a guy who says, In a June 2000 interview with the Washington Post, the stocks he chose were “the most neutral-type companies … No. 1, they’re not monopolists and No. 2, they don’t produce land mines, napalm, weapons.”....yet he's invested in Cisco, one of the worst monolpolists in the tech industry and General Dynamics (through Fidelity Magellan Fund) who certainly builds lots of weapons.

I would say false accusations that led to a model line of car ending production is certainly not irrelevant to GM, or the workers supporting the Corvair. I would also say that making the serious level of accusations leveled at GM.....and then being PROVED wrong by not only the NHTSA, but an independent panel of engineers, irreparably damage Nader's objective credibility.

LOL at referencing DeLorean, certainly he had no ax to grind (or books to sell) with GM.

I'm sorry, I guess multiple, documented, factual, accounts from numerous sources is "Faux News". My brain must be too rotted to get that.

So you think him being wrong about something in the 1960s while fighting for consumer safety is worth mentioning in Presidential qualities?

I'm not understanding how him owning stock has anything to do with his principles or what he stands for. Owning stock doesn't mean he doesn't want to limit corporate greed or get corporate America out of our government. Corporations aren't evil, and I'm quite positive he doesn't think so either. So the stuff you posted is 110% irrelevant to his qualifications and his stances on the issues.

If you can prove to me he's voted differently (or would vote differently) based on his views, then you might have something. As it is, you are grasping at straws trying to disregard his as a good Presidential candidate.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I'm not understanding how him owning stock has anything to do with his principles or what he stands for. Owning stock doesn't mean he doesn't want to limit corporate greed or get corporate America out of our government. Corporations aren't evil, and I'm quite positive he doesn't think so either. So the stuff you posted is 110% irrelevant to his qualifications and his stances on the issues.

Owning stock has nothing to do with his principles? Nader making a conscience choice to be a part owner of a monopolistic company (as of 2001, 25% of his stocks were in Cisco) when he publicly opposed monopolistic practices is indicative of nothing?

Got it - you believe a candidate's hypocrisy is irrelevant to their qualifications to hold office. I will note that down for future reference.

[mlmpetert]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Owning stock has nothing to do with his principles? Nader making a conscience choice to be a part owner of a monopolistic company (as of 2001, 25% of his stocks were in Cisco) when he publicly opposed monopolistic practices is indicative of nothing?

Got it - you believe a candidate's hypocrisy is irrelevant to their qualifications to hold office. I will note that down for future reference.

Youre forgetting that conflicts of interest only apply to people like me and you.....

Insider Trading Rules That Don't Apply To Congress - Forbes

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Owning stock has nothing to do with his principles? Nader making a conscience choice to be a part owner of a monopolistic company (as of 2001, 25% of his stocks were in Cisco) when he publicly opposed monopolistic practices is indicative of nothing?

Nader actually has been a Cisco stockholder since 1995. Also, I would say back in 2000 or 2001, Cisco wasn't the giant that it is today. Nortel and other companies were heavily involved in the technology industry as well. Unfortunately for Nortel, their main technology (legacy phone systems) has all but died out and VoIP is rapidly replacing it.

Ralph Nader wants Cisco to up dividend. He's right. The Buzz - Jun. 24, 2011

Looks like he called Cisco out on paying out shareholders.

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Got it - you believe a candidate's hypocrisy is irrelevant to their qualifications to hold office. I will note that down for future reference.

I suppose you vote for nobody right? They are all hypocritical and usually don't do what they say.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Nader actually has been a Cisco stockholder since 1995. Also, I would say back in 2000 or 2001, Cisco wasn't the giant that it is today. Nortel and other companies were heavily involved in the technology industry as well. Unfortunately for Nortel, their main technology (legacy phone systems) has all but died out and VoIP is rapidly replacing it.

So, once Cisco became a monopolistic endeavor, he continued to hold stock in the company despite his disapproval of monopolistic practices. Once Cisco's conflict with his stated corporate investment policies became apparent - his failure to divest himself of ownership in the company is somehow not a problem?

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Ralph Nader wants Cisco to up dividend. He's right. The Buzz - Jun. 24, 2011

Looks like he called Cisco out on paying out shareholders.

I saw that but did not reference it as a courtesy to you. All it highlights is Nader's further hypocrisy - despite Nader's stated disapproval of monopolistic corporate practices, Nader believes he and others are entitled to the profits gained from such practices. "It's wrong, but dammit - give me my cut".

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I suppose you vote for nobody right? They are all hypocritical and usually don't do what they say.

Nice. Classic NC_Skins: Admit no error and move the rhetorical target. I commend you - you are excellent at the "bob and weave". --- The crux of the argument leading to this oh-so-overly-analyzed digression into Nader's investment into Cisco was the simple assertion that Nader's actions were hypocritical. In response, and w/out admitting or denying the hypocrisy of the action, you - NC_Skins - asserted that the facts stated were irrelevant to Nader's qualifications as a candidate. I then confront you w/ logical tautology that (1) Nader's actions were hypocritical; and (2) you assert that Nader's hypocrisy is irrelevant; thus I make the hyperbolic assertion that (3) you consider hypocrisy to be irrelevant. At this point, my position of other candidates' hypocrises was simply not part of the discussion.

Now, confronted with the blatant logical error of (3) above, and, to demonstrate the error, being confronted by the rhetorical corner requiring an admission from you that either (a) Nader's actions exhibited hypocrisy or (b) Nader's hypocrisy is relevant to his qualifications as a candidate - BAM - Nader's hypocrisy is no longer the subject of the discussion, but, instead, you assert through implication that, since all candidates are hypocritical (a truism I do not dispute - BTW), it is hypocritical of me to attack just Nader's hypocritical actions. This, despite the fact that I have taken no position as to any other candidates' alleged hypocrisies. Subtle, stunning and stupid all in one. As I said, brilliant.

To be clear, I vote. Unlike you, I also recognize hypocrisy when it's highlighted - even if it is by candidates I endorse [As I once said to someone: both the Dems and the Reps lie, I just generally prefer the Republican lies to the Democratic ones]. To me, a candidate's hypocrisy is relevant dependent upon what the particular hypocrisy is. In the case of Nader, Nader's owning stock and investing in a company whose policies he stated he would specifically avoid is telling but not determinative. Since he is so far detached from reality, it is really only one more reason for me to ignore him.

On the other hand, it was your claim that Nader's owning of stock in Cisco was irrelevant to his qualifications as a candidate. Through your typically imprecise language, and your equally typical moving of the rhetorical target, it is not clear whether you consider Nader's owning of Cisco stock to be hypocritical - your answer seems to say you don't find it hypocritical but, again in your typical fashion, your imprecisely worded response allows you to interpret it in whichever way ever suits you best at a later date.

Nader's actions were hypocritical. Your denial of such is either stupid or obtuse. The relevance of his hypocrisy is dependent upon a variety of factors in turn dependent upon each individual's priorities. Your attempt to waive off as his hypocrisy as a smear tactic or a non-consideration is intellectual arrogance. Finally, your attempt to subtley change the topic while admitting no error was simply a matter of intellectual dishonesty. All of it is, unfortunately, consistent with your posts in the political forums.

To the rest of the posters, I apologize for the digression.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Also, I would say back in 2000 or 2001, Cisco wasn't the giant that it is today. Nortel and other companies were heavily involved in the technology industry as well.

Incorrect. In 2000 Cisco was the most valuable company in the world with a market cap of $ 500B, in 2009 its market cap was $ 108B.

Unfortunately for Nortel, their main technology (legacy phone systems) has all but died out and VoIP is rapidly replacing it.

Still a great deal of TDM systems out there, with the Avaya acquisition of Nortel and the economic difficulties of the last few years, many existing TDM systems will be migrated to hybrid (VoIP & TDM) systems rather than replaced by Cisco VoIP.