Sex Abuse Scandal Rocks Penn State

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

SS, I don't get why you are so concerned about football players who had nothing to do with this but want federal scholarship funding cut for students who similarly had nothing to do with any of this, scholarships that allowed people like me to attend the most expensive state school in the country and are basically responsible for everything that I now have in my life. I get why people are angry but to just vindictively wish pain on anyone who has any PSU affiliation at all is just mean, and to show solicitude for football players (who can just transfer to a comparable institution easily) but not for regular students (who can't) is just perverse. I really don't get it.

i dont think anyone with a rational thought process would wish vindictive pain on the current students and facilty that have had nothing to do with the sandusky case. i think people want to see penn state react faster than they have though, and the lack of public response has rubbbed alot of people the wrong way. it leads to the perception that penn state is too wrapped up in themselfs to identify the problem and find a solution. i feel sorry for all of the people with any affilitation to the school that are wrongly affected by this, but at the end of the day it's a bi-product of the university's wrong doing. and these students and facilty are not the only innocent people effected by this, the victims come first and foremost.

for the record i think the university should be able to continue with academics as normal, but the football program should be shut down for at least one year. and the university also needs to remove all ties to paterno, knowing what we now know there is no reason what so ever to continue any afiliation with that name. it's a very sad and tragic set of events that have unfolded here.

[mooby]

djnemo, I had a feeling you would show up once the dust settled down in this thread, and to be clear, I don't have anything against most of the students that go to Penn State. Granted, I don't agree with the ones who are still supporting Paterno post-Freeh report, and I don't agree with his family, who are clearly only doing this to try and protect what remains of his tarnished legacy, but I don't have any desire to have their funding cut or for Penn State to get the academic death penalty.

I do think the football program should receive the death penalty though, and it's primarily based upon the fact that the man responsible for 3 decades of on-field success enabled a child molester for at least 10 years, and potentially more. I feel that nullifies any success they had on the field, and I think by allowing the football team to continue to exist will only invite more disruption and will serve to keep a volatile situation continuing long after the fact. I understand that doing so could potentially hurt all those players on the team today who haven't had anything to do with this, but unfortunately this is bigger than them and if they want to continue to play, they should have the option to transfer to another school and have the one-year dq waived. Every game they play as the Penn State football team could serve as a scene for a potential riot, with thousands of dissenters showing up to voice their opposition.

By giving the football program the death penalty, the NCAA would be serving an effective warning that if the country continues to put coaches and football programs up on a god-like pedestal, they would continue to let the opportunity for lies, deceit, and extreme misconduct like what happened at Penn State continue uninterrupted. I understand if you disagree completely, but a situation of this magnitude has to be dealt with appropriately. It wasn't just the fact that Jerry Sandusky did irreparable damage to these kids, it was also the fact that Spanier, Schultz, Curley, and Paterno put the reputation of their nationally renowned football program ahead of the welfare of the kids he harmed. For that, I think their nationally renowned football program shouldn't continue to exist.

I also understand much of what I just said isn't what your post is about, but I felt the need to clarify my opinion on this one.

[djnemo65]

I disagree with those people too Mooby, although their numbers are dwindling.

People realize that the death penalty means a 1-2 year ban from competition right? If anyone thinks that the NCAA is going to discontinue PSU football forever you're going to be disappointed. Personally, I questioned whether the NCAA has the authority to get involved in a criminal matter initially (and still do) although increasingly I'm thinking that a one or even two year ban might be in the best interests of the school going forward, given that people don't seem very receptive to legalistic jurisdictional arguments about NCAA bylaws. Although when schools have covered up rapes of young women instead of men to protect their football teams I don't remember this level of outrage. See eg: Colorado Lawsuit Alleged Rape Football Recruiting Party ; UM dean implicated 4 football players in gang rape, emails reveal ; This Is What Happens When You Accuse A Notre Dame Football Player Of Sexually Assaulting You

As long as we agree that schools like this should get similar penalties moving forward I have no problem with the death penalty being applied.

*Just to be clear I'm not saying that those incidents come close to the level of depravity we see in the Penn State case, only that if we are going to radically expand the jurisdiction of the NCAA we need to all understand that that is in fact what we're doing.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

I disagree with those people too Mooby, although their numbers are dwindling.

People realize that the death penalty means a 1-2 year ban from competition right? If anyone thinks that the NCAA is going to discontinue PSU football forever you're going to be disappointed. Personally, I questioned whether the NCAA has the authority to get involved in a criminal matter initially (and still do) although increasingly I'm thinking that a one or even two year ban might be in the best interests of the school going forward, given that people don't seem very receptive to legalistic jurisdictional arguments about NCAA bylaws. Although when schools have covered up rapes of young women instead of men to protect their football teams I don't remember this level of outrage. See eg: Colorado Lawsuit Alleged Rape Football Recruiting Party ; UM dean implicated 4 football players in gang rape, emails reveal ; This Is What Happens When You Accuse A Notre Dame Football Player Of Sexually Assaulting You

As long as we agree that schools like this should get similar penalties moving forward I have no problem with the death penalty being applied.

*Just to be clear I'm not saying that those incidents come close to the level of depravity we see in the Penn State case, only that if we are going to radically expand the jurisdiction of the NCAA we need to all understand that that is in fact what we're doing.

To be honest, I keep confusing myself on the death penalty. If the death penalty is only a 1 or 2 year ban, than I feel even more strongly that it be enforced, because 2 years of not playing football is miniscule compared to a decade of child abuse. I'm not sure what kind of penalty the NCAA will throw down here, but I think it could easily be the "death penalty." And I do agree with you in regards to the Colorado case mentioned above, any case where a football program is placed in higher regards than the welfare of any person is a case where harsh punishment should be meted out. I also say that as a fan of VT, knowing full well those words could come back to haunt me someday.

[SmootSmack]

Well, like I said DJ, it's how I felt at the moment. We're coming at this, of course, from two different perspectives. Penn State means a lot to you, and I know it means a lot to all those people who looked the other way and those who continue to justify/defend Paterno et al.

To me? Penn State means nothing. I've got friends with strong ties both past and present to Penn State. I'm sure it would sadden them to no end if Penn State is destroyed as an institution both academically and athletically. Hard for me to shed a tear though, as much as I know the damage could be far reaching.

Is it emotions talking? Sure, it probably is. But not unlike the emotions of those back in November who complained about people unfairly vilifying Joe Paterno

[Chico23231]

I agree with Mooby. The NCAA need to send a simple message, football programs are not above child abuse. The motive to cover up what was the cash cow of football and the importance of football and the university reputation is simply unacceptable. College sports needs to step back and really question themselves and make a commitment of nothing like this must never happen again. 1 year suspension of all football activities would send the proper message.

Boo hoo if Penn State football team cant play for one year, thats the type of selfishness we need to step back and look at. Once again, you simply dont understand how serious this is if the arguement is current players shouldnt be punished. Its not about current players, its the institution of the god-like like football program that needs punishment. Got to send a message.

[djnemo65]

Wait, so because people made irrational emotional arguments in November it's ok for you to make irrational emotional arguments now? I mean that's your argument right? You mean nothing to me SS, I mean I like it when you have inside info on the Skins but you're really just an avatar to me ... but that doesn't mean I want bad things to happen to you. In fact, I don't. Although the idea that PSU could be destroyed not only as a sports school (which is possible) but as an academic entity (which is not) reconfirms what other posts of yours have shown (and I'm talking about the facepalm-worthy post in November that speculated that state funding cuts might lead to Penn State closing up shop): that you have basically no idea how higher education works, how schools are funded, and what a reduction in federal aid money and football revenue for a grant-driven research school like Penn State would mean. Penn State currently is about 90 percent privately funded (and less than .5 percent of its budget comes from the Federal government, and then only in the form of Agricultural grants) and there have been calls from within for years to bump that up to 100 percent. The thinking is, if we're basically already a private school why not go all the way? The idea that by cutting scholarships to needy kids you precipitate the collapse of the school - rather than just further shutting out regular people like me from the best non-ivy league education one can get in PA - shows that you're a little bit out of your element here. I'm not saying you should understand this, only that you don't. And you don't. Peaceout.

[SmootSmack]

I'm not sure what part of "this is emotion talking" is hard to grasp

But whatever.

[SmootSmack]

As for my November post, I'm pretty sure I was talking about a DOE "death penalty" not a total shut down of the university.

[mredskins]

I think a lot of PSU current and alumni students are embarrassed. They were once such a proud group now it has to hurt a bit when someone ask where you went to school. I see it on my sister and brother in laws faces.

My BIL took down a lot of his PSU stuff at his house. His fridge use to say "we are Penn State" when you opened it. He took that down.

They both still live in PA btw; I can only imagine how much more painfully it is for displaced PSU folks.

The folks responsible should be held accountable; I don't know how by tearing down the entire football and/or school is fair to folks who had nothing to do with this.

I also believe the statue of Joe P should be brought down as well out of respect for the victims. If it stays up and you are not a victim who cares it just a piece of metal I would not waste my time driving to happy valley to tear it down.

[hooskins]

If Penn State thinks its so unfair to have their program shut down for a bit, those at the top shouldnt have enabled an environment where young children were raped. Not much more complex than that IMO.

PSU will be forever remembered for this but they can also be remembered for taking quick action, being critical of Paterno and the football program, etc. Instead, all this denial is only further hurting the school's reputation.

[Monkeydad]

Yep, denial is exactly what it is.

It's almost painful, but very pathetic to listen to the Paterno worshippers. I work with a ton of them. They've been whiining "it's such a shame that an evil monster can tarnish the legacy of such a great man". Sickening. It's like they don't even care about or realize what happened.

Their latest straw argument..."I want to know what role the Governor had in this scandal, he was Attorney General before he was Governor!"

Surprise, surprise, these people are also raging liberals who have been crying since the Republican Governor was elected and any chance they get to try to take him down they do. The Governor was not part of the cover-up. PATERNO was. PATERNO allowed it. He hid it. He was part of it. Accept it. You can't blame law enforcement for this not coming out earlier when there was a huge undertaking by every level of the University to hide it.

Why don't we talk about the District Attorney who just DISAPPEARED in 2005 while he was hot on Sandusky's trail. Also, that boy in the shower, no one knows who he is or where he is now. Was his body disposed of along with the District Attorney who may have known his name?

Ray Gricar, the DA...his car was found empty. His computer hard drives were stolen and turned up in the Susquehanna River...his body was never found.

I won't be shocked if it comes out that the University, boosters or Paterno and Sandusky themselves hired a hitman or two with school and taxpayer funds.

Would it shock you?

Shut that football program down, not for a year, indefinitely. I think we have not even scratched the surface of what they did. We're all in for plenty of shock, even more than we've already had.



Former Penn State Coach Prosecutor Center of Penn Missing Man Mystery - ABC News

Excerpt:

Then, in April 2005, Gricar disappeared.

His car was found abandoned in a Lewisburg, Pa., parking lot and his laptop's harddrive was recovered from the nearby Susquehannna River, but there was no other trace of Gricar. No clues could be gleaned from the severely damaged harddrive and despite a six year investigation that involved the FBI and international help, police have as little an idea today about what happened to the former DA as they did then.

"We literally used every single resource, national and international," Bellefonte, Pa., police chief Shawn Weaver told ABC News today. "This is baffling. He literally just disappeared off the face of the earth."

[hooskins]

Yeah the whole DA bit seems to be way too much to be a coincidence. I'm not one to buy into conspiracy theories, but what happened was pretty wild. Seems like something out of a movie.

[mredskins]

This is starting to reach Jim Jones levels:

Penn State students protecting Joe Paterno statue - NCAA Football - SI.com

Happy Valley will soon be Jonestown with large punch bowls placed through out the campus.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by mredskins

This is starting to reach Jim Jones levels:

Penn State students protecting Joe*Paterno statue - NCAA Football - SI.com

Happy Valley will soon be Jonestown with large punch bowls placed through out the campus.

After reading this, I say burn the whole campus down. Officially in the absolutely ridiculous territory.