Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.

Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

I agreed with the MS hire. I'm not calling for his head....yet. If we're in the same boat this time next year and no significant philisophical changes are made then yes I'll be screaming for him to be gone too.

Agree we need consistency, but we don't need to be consistently bad. The reason the QBs you mention above are successful is because they're damn good QBs, not because of their "systems". The HC's of their teams have been intelligent in the way they scheme around their talents. Any of these guys would be successful in any system. We don't have a franchise QB and there's no guarantee we'll get one this off-season.

If you've got a fridge full of chicken and a pantry full of noodles, you don't make steak & potatoes....you make chicken soup.

Edit: I'll add this, I love my son with all my heart, I've coached him since he was young. I'd love nothing better than for him to be an OC while I was HC and leave a HC position and legacy for him to step into/continue....however parental feelings can cloud judgement. I wouldn't put him & I in the situation that MS & KS are in here, because when things weren't going right and changes needed to be made it would be ugly for us both.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I agreed with the MS hire. I'm not calling for his head....yet. If we're in the same boat this time next year and no significant philisophical changes are made then yes I'll be screaming for him to be gone too.

Agree we need consistency, but we don't need to be consistently bad. The reason the QBs you mention above are successful is because they're damn good QBs, not because of their "systems". The HC's of their teams have been intelligent in the way they scheme around their talents. Any of these guys would be successful in any system. We don't have a franchise QB and there's no guarantee we'll get one this off-season.

If you've got a fridge full of chicken and a pantry full of noodles, you don't make steak & potatoes....you make chicken soup.

Totally agree with you. But let me aske you then will any talented QB like Luck if the team was able to even reach to get him play well in this system next year or is there more fundamental changes across the board needed? or will MS/KS have to look for a cookie cutter QB for their system because not just any QB will work in their system? Clearly they can't just plug in any QB as we've seen Grossman and Beck are not working out and McNabb failed in the system also. You could argue that Grossman/Beck are just bad QB's, and McNabb was unwilling to change, but is it something else? I think you eluded to it... the coaching staff is not designing plays around the talents of the QB under center. I think we all know this.

So what has to change if we are in the same position next year at this time? KS fired? MS fired?

Listening to the radio today an ex player for Seattle was asked if this is the same system he played against when he played MS's Bronco's and the ex player said no. Basically he said the players are not playing like a MS team, mentioned the OL not blocking well and not seeing much cut blocking that MS likes to use. Which made me wonder..... is the OL coach not coaching like the OL coach did while MS was in Denver? If I recall our OL coach was not doing very well in San Fran either.... he probably was going to get fired.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Totally agree with you. But let me aske you then will any talented QB like Luck if the team was able to even reach to get him play well in this system next year or is there more fundamental changes across the board needed?

I think Luck & RG3 would succeed. I haven't done a bunch of checking into the other QBs coming out so I can't give an informed opinion on them. I don't like the KS system, just take a look at his time in HOU vs. what they're doing now offensively, due to a committment to the run game. Keep in mind A. Johnson has been injured this year too. As others have mentioned, KS can draw up route combos etc., but his playcalling, team specific gameplanning, and certainly emphasis on the run are questionable at best.

So what has to change if we are in the same position next year at this time? KS fired? MS fired?

Whole staff gone. Bring in SS33 as team president, I'll save Snyder a ton of money and wouldn't do any worse for sure.

Listening to the radio today an ex player for Seattle was asked if this is the same system he played against when he played MS's Bronco's and the ex player said no. Basically he said the players are not playing like a MS team, mentioned the OL not blocking well and not seeing much cut blocking that MS likes to use. Which made me wonder..... is the OL coach not coaching like the OL coach did while MS was in Denver? If I recall our OL coach was not doing very well in San Fran either.... he probably was going to get fired.

Exactly right, we aren't running MS's system, KS is in control of the offense, just look at our run/pass numbers. I saw a couple of cuts early in the season and Bowen mentioned that cutting was a big part of the scheme....but I haven't seen much cutting which is a staple of the ZBS. Again this all falls on MS, if the system isn't effective or being run the way he wants, it's his responsibility to "coach up" the coaches or make changes.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Exactly right, we aren't running MS's system, KS is in control of the offense, just look at our run/pass numbers. I saw a couple of cuts early in the season and Bowen mentioned that cutting was a big part of the scheme....but I haven't seen much cutting which is a staple of the ZBS. Again this all falls on MS, if the system isn't effective or being run the way he wants, it's his responsibility to "coach up" the coaches or make changes.

I just don't think MS is doing much coaching period. Which is why we are not seeing the MS offensive staple. He might have wanted some run scheme's thrown into the mix but I'm guessing it's all KS.

I understand there needs to be a commitment to the run but really are the numbers really all that off? I think whats best is 50/50 run/pass but we tend to be around 60/40 pass/run which I don't think is really all that bad either. I think KS's issue with getting away from the run is it doesn't work once and he shifts to passes. Gibbs was run, run, pass, punt, then come back out and do it again because sooner or later the defense will tire out and by the 4th quarter big runs will be available. KS seems to get frustrated when the OL does not block for the run so he turns to the pass.

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

Brady won the Super Bowl in his first year as a starter, and Brees was awesome in his first year in New Orleans. Those guys are so successful, because they're really good.

But the Giants were smart for sticking with Coughlin through some tough years (he can thank the Skins for that). It paid off with a Super Bowl. We should ride it out and let this staff play out their contract.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

I agree completely that a consistent and long-term planned approach is the way to build a successful team.

However, I must depart from your commentary when you say that P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees, Brady etc. are successful because they stayed in the same system for more than 2 years.

I truly believe that P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees and Brady - - add Aaron Rodgers to this list too - - are successful first and foremost because of their innate talent level and their commitment to learn the game. They stay in the same system to a large extent because they make "the system they play in" a successful one. [That is a good example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.]

The Washington Redskins have not had a QB with the innate talent level of any one of those 5 QBs mentioned above since Sonny Jurgensen was in his prime. That was about 40 years ago...

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

I agree completely that a consistent and long-term planned approach is the way to build a successful team.

However, I must depart from your commentary when you say that P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees, Brady etc. are successful because they stayed in the same system for more than 2 years.

I truly believe that P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees and Brady - - add Aaron Rodgers to this list too - - are successful first and foremost because of their innate talent level and their commitment to learn the game. They stay in the same system to a large extent because they make "the system they play in" a successful one. [That is a good example of a self-fulfilling prophecy.]

The Washington Redskins have not had a QB with the innate talent level of any one of those 5 QBs mentioned above since Sonny Jurgensen was in his prime. That was about 40 years ago...

Look people (and your not the only one) I didn't mean to say those QB's are ONLY successful because they were in the same system for several years, what I was saying is it helped their developement and helps that they know the scheme inside and out vs. being forced to learn a new system every 2 years. They have talent but that talent alone is not what makes them special, no different then them being in the same system does not make them special.