Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)

[SmootSmack]

NFL.com news: With Barkley now out of picture, attention turns to Griffin

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

NFL.com news: With Barkley now out of picture, attention turns to Griffin

Lots of information about Griffin there. Makes him sound much more like a project QB (at the pro level) than most comments would lead you to believe.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Lots of information about Griffin there. Makes him sound much more like a project QB (at the pro level) than most comments would lead you to believe.

Very accurate report, that's why Luck and Barkley were consider 1 and 2, because of the pro style offenses they played on. Griffin is great just not as polished, however he has a great upside cause he's very smart and I'm sure could pick things up quickly.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Lots of information about Griffin there. Makes him sound much more like a project QB (at the pro level) than most comments would lead you to believe.

Definitely exposes Griffin's downside. Of course, my biggest question of him was how quickly could he adjust to a pro style offense. The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.

I do agree though, I think if you can develop RG III and develop his skills at reading defenses, you can have a championship caliber QB. BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Definitely exposes Griffin's downside. Of course, my biggest question of him was how quickly could he adjust to a pro style offense. The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.

I do agree though, I think if you can develop RG III and develop his skills at reading defenses, you can have a championship caliber QB. BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.

Good post...hard to disagree w/ your thinking here.

[SkinItup]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Definitely exposes Griffin's downside. Of course, my biggest question of him was how quickly could he adjust to a pro style offense. The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.

I do agree though, I think if you can develop RG III and develop his skills at reading defenses, you can have a championship caliber QB. BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.

Who is going to Challenge him on the skins? He might not be better than grossman to start but he can't throw too many more INTS than him and the experience would be valuable. he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would lose confidence easily.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by SkinItup

Who is going to Challenge him on the skins? He might not be better than grossman to start but he can't throw too many more INTS than him and the experience would be valuable. he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would lose confidence easily.

You have to keep in mind that this is Mike Shanahan's third season coming up as coach of the Redskins. While I believe Snyder is more patient than what he was in the beginning of his tenure, he does not want to see another 5-11 or 6-10 season. While I believe we have seen the best that Rex Grossman has to offer, Grossman knows the offense and can run it pretty well. The only quarterback coming out of college who I'd feel comfortable starting from the start of the season would be Andrew Luck, and I don't think we're getting him. All the rest of the guys will more or less have to ride the pine for at least a few weeks. That being said, I believe the only way RG III shows early success ala Cam Newton, is if Kyle Shanahan is willing to re-work his offensive scheme around RG III's strengths and knowledge and go with that. But, we have all seen that KS wants someone who fits his system, not the other way around.

I'm thinking no matter who we draft, assuming we don't get someone like Mark Sanchez, Rex Grossman is probably going to start the season, and maybe gives way to the rookie by mid-season. Keep in mind, Grossman was out for about three games this year. While at least one of those he would have been out no matter what (pneumonia), there COULD have been possibly one or two games that the Redskins win, which would have put the Redskins in the thick of things for the NFC East title this season. So, as bad as Rex can be, we still had opportunities to have at least an 8-8 season, which would have been an improvement on last season, and on paper would have shown progress. Don't get me wrong, Rex Grossman is NOT the Redskins future, and I strongly support drafting a quarterback and going with young talent. But, as fickled as us Redskins fans are, no matter if Shanahan does that and even starts the kid day one, Redskins fans will be calling for his head come mid season when the skins are 2-6 with the rookie in.

[mredskins]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

You have to keep in mind that this is Mike Shanahan's third season coming up as coach of the Redskins. While I believe Snyder is more patient than what he was in the beginning of his tenure, he does not want to see another 5-11 or 6-10 season. While I believe we have seen the best that Rex Grossman has to offer, Grossman knows the offense and can run it pretty well. The only quarterback coming out of college who I'd feel comfortable starting from the start of the season would be Andrew Luck, and I don't think we're getting him. All the rest of the guys will more or less have to ride the pine for at least a few weeks. That being said, I believe the only way RG III shows early success ala Cam Newton, is if Kyle Shanahan is willing to re-work his offensive scheme around RG III's strengths and knowledge and go with that. But, we have all seen that KS wants someone who fits his system, not the other way around.

I'm thinking no matter who we draft, assuming we don't get someone like Mark Sanchez, Rex Grossman is probably going to start the season, and maybe gives way to the rookie by mid-season. Keep in mind, Grossman was out for about three games this year. While at least one of those he would have been out no matter what (pneumonia), there COULD have been possibly one or two games that the Redskins win, which would have put the Redskins in the thick of things for the NFC East title this season. So, as bad as Rex can be, we still had opportunities to have at least an 8-8 season, which would have been an improvement on last season, and on paper would have shown progress. Don't get me wrong, Rex Grossman is NOT the Redskins future, and I strongly support drafting a quarterback and going with young talent. But, as fickled as us Redskins fans are, no matter if Shanahan does that and even starts the kid day one, Redskins fans will be calling for his head come mid season when the skins are 2-6 with the rookie in.

I think the idea a rookie must sit his first year and if he doesn't then the team will suck has kinda of gone by the way side. Many rookies have come out starting in the NFL of late with great success. It depends on their ability to shorten the learning curve and their supporting cast.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by mredskins

I think the idea a rookie must sit his first year and if he doesn't then the team will suck has kinda of gone by the way side. Many rookies have come out starting in the NFL of late with great success. It depends on their ability to shorten the learning curve and their supporting cast.

Your idea only makes sense IF your last sentence is true. Unfortunately, that's not the case across the board, and I'm not sure that would be true in Washington. I think it would be a moot point anyways, as I'm not sure Mike Shanahan would necessarily start a rookie quarterback unless he showed unbelievable skills from the start. And even though Rex Grossman is probably going to be as good as he has been this season, he's still going to be a tough man to bench simply because he knows the offense. It would be easier to bench him for another young veteran with playoff experience. Mike is not going to make that mistake again of benching Rex Grossman for an unproven commodity. Maybe even if the 'skins somehow got Andrew Luck, its not a given Shanahan starts him from day one.

I can't tell you the situations of other teams around the league, but this is the situation at Redskins park. You're going into Mike's third season on his five year contract. He has had two losing seasons so far. There is going to be pressure on him to show some legitimate progress in the win column this season. Not saying he's fired if season three is another sub .500, but I don't believe Dan Snyder wants this team to be losers throughout the whole rebuilding process. It's important the Redskins are no worse than 8-8 in year three and that's strictly my opinion, but I believe that to be true regardless who the quarterback is.

Just thinking realistically, I think it's a long shot for any rookie quarterback to be named the starter from week one. I would be very surprised, because that would be a bold move on Mike Shanahan's part. If that rookie is RG III, knowing what all we have learned about him - the good and bad - that's even more of a bold move. It's pretty much a common knowledge that Andrew Luck seems would get a free pass around the league if he's thrust into the starting role (not that I necessarily agree with it) but I think he's the only one.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.

I agree to an extent.
But, the ability to 'read' defenses isn't innate its taught/learned.
The ability to read defenses has a lot to with the QBs apptitude and intelligence but imo its equally a function of:

o the system
o coaching
o experience/continuity

BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.

People say things like this about spread QBs every year.
But, imo being ready to play isn't a question of coming from a pro-style offense or not.
Its a question of maturity, coachability, drive, confidence, intelligence and of course talent.
Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Bradford, Colt McCoy all had coaches 'reading' the defense 'for' them (its par for the course for spread QBs) but that didn't stop these guys from playing early or right away.

The bigger question imo isn't the apptitude of RGIII but rather of Kyle.
The inability to teach any other QB the offense has led to Rex being our QB for 15 games.
This imo calls into question how easily the offense can be taught.
Rookies Cam Newton and Andy Dalton, non-pro-style/spread QBs, were able to learn their respective offense in a shortened offseason.
Matt Moore was able to learn a new offense at the end of training camp.
Carson Palmer and Kyle Orton learned their offseason mid-season.
Yet, Rex Grossman was our QB because he knew our offense.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I agree to an extent.
But, the ability to 'read' defenses isn't innate its taught/learned.
The ability to read defenses has a lot to with the QBs apptitude and intelligence but imo its equally a function of:

o the system
o coaching
o experience/continuity

People say things like this about spread QBs every year.
But, imo being ready to play isn't a question of coming from a pro-style offense or not.
Its a question of maturity, coachability, drive, confidence, intelligence and of course talent.
Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Bradford, Colt McCoy all had coaches 'reading' the defense 'for' them (its par for the course for spread QBs) but that didn't stop these guys from playing early or right away.

The bigger question imo isn't the apptitude of RGIII but rather of Kyle.
The inability to teach any other QB the offense has led to Rex being our QB for 15 games.
This imo calls into question how easily the offense can be taught.
Rookies Cam Newton and Andy Dalton, non-pro-style/spread QBs, were able to learn their respective offense in a shortened offseason.
Matt Moore was able to learn a new offense at the end of training camp.
Carson Palmer and Kyle Orton learned their offseason mid-season.
Yet, Rex Grossman was our QB because he knew our offense.

I think they've done a good job with Grossman. But the offensive upside is limited. Because it's Rex Grossman.

I think you've really touched on a number of bottom line things here.

One thing I would add is that the "pro-style" offense in college doesn't typically involve a lot of pro reads. That's what makes Luck so different from everyone else, because one of the biggest limitations on QBs coming from college to the pros (the abilities to use coverage reads and to work a progression) is something Luck is already doing. Because of that, you don't risk a situation like you have with Sanchez where three years down the line you need a fall guy because your quarterback isn't improving.

Andrew Luck could still fail. He could play inconsistently in his first season, get hurt and miss the entire second season and then have another injury in his third preseason. Then it really doesn't matter what you have invested in Andrew Luck: you didn't get return on it. Andrew Luck could end up being the next Greg Cook. But Andrew Luck is not going to fail because of the nuances of pro offenses. He's already doing that in college.

Anyway, whether or not someone is running pro style formations in offense doesn't mean they are reading defenses. If the receiver is determined by the playcall, then the receiver is determined by the playcall. And that's the norm in college. Spread/pro/wishbone doesn't matter when projecting quarterbacks.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think they've done a good job with Grossman. But the offensive upside is limited. Because it's Rex Grossman.

I think you've really touched on a number of bottom line things here.

One thing I would add is that the "pro-style" offense in college doesn't typically involve a lot of pro reads. That's what makes Luck so different from everyone else, because one of the biggest limitations on QBs coming from college to the pros (the abilities to use coverage reads and to work a progression) is something Luck is already doing. Because of that, you don't risk a situation like you have with Sanchez where three years down the line you need a fall guy because your quarterback isn't improving.

Andrew Luck could still fail. He could play inconsistently in his first season, get hurt and miss the entire second season and then have another injury in his third preseason. Then it really doesn't matter what you have invested in Andrew Luck: you didn't get return on it. Andrew Luck could end up being the next Greg Cook. But Andrew Luck is not going to fail because of the nuances of pro offenses. He's already doing that in college.

Anyway, whether or not someone is running pro style formations in offense doesn't mean they are reading defenses. If the receiver is determined by the playcall, then the receiver is determined by the playcall. And that's the norm in college. Spread/pro/wishbone doesn't matter when projecting quarterbacks.

That's what I've been trying to say in this thread. While I think it's a plus to have been in a pro style offense in college, MY thoughts are on how well the quarterback can read coverages straight out of college. If he's already doing that before he even gets into the NFL, that is a HUGE advantage over the other QBs being drafted.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

MY thoughts are on how well the quarterback can read coverages straight out of college. If he's already doing that before he even gets into the NFL, that is a HUGE advantage over the other QBs being drafted.

That's where I disagree.
I think its an advantage but not a huge advantage.
All the QBs will have to learn how to read defenses which are far more sophisticated then any they've every seen in college.
But the advantage of having 'read' defenses before could end up being a very short lived advantage i.e. it might not matter past training camp.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

That's what makes Luck so different from everyone else, because one of the biggest limitations on QBs coming from college to the pros (the abilities to use coverage reads and to work a progression) is something Luck is already doing. Because of that, you don't risk a situation like you have with Sanchez where three years down the line you need a fall guy because your quarterback isn't improving.

I don't think that what Luck is doing is that different from other 'pro-style- QBs.
Ryan Mallett, Ricky Stanzi, Scott Tolzien even McElroy were all high efficiency 'pro-style' QBs that made pre-snap reads and followed post snap progressions.
Personally I think a lot of the special skills that are attributed to Luck are more a function of his offense and Harbaugh's outstanding coaching at the QB position. (See Josh Johnson in college, see Alex Smith now).
I just don't see Luck as a special, once in a decade talent, that guy was in last yeas draft.
I see Luck like a more athletic, playmaking Matt Ryan.