I See QB Rumors (2012 QB Thread: The Sixth Sense)

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I guess it depends on who 'they' are.
If 'they' is Mike Holmgren then I doubt draft position has much bearing on how he views his QBs.
And in general I don't think the way you describe the thought process is how coaches approach their QB decisions.
I don't believe a coach would ever draft a QB with the thought: I don't believe QB X has a chance to become franchise QB, prove us wrong.
I'm sure that wasn't the thought when Walsh drafted Montana in the 3rd.
Also IIRC Holmgren has never drafted a QB in the 1st round.
And has produced more quality QBs then most.
His track record suggests that when it comes to QBs he right far more often then the NFL at large.

On the whole I don't think QB gurus judge or gauge their opinion on a QB by how much they had to give up to acquire them.
Rather they seek to use their understanding of what they're looking for in a QB to spend/draft lower then the the rest of the league.

Well don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you what this scout (former actually) and some others think is happening in Cleveland.

Me personally? I think they don't really have an opinion on McCoy yet

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you what this scout (former actually) and some others think is happening in Cleveland.

Me personally? I think they don't really have an opinion on McCoy yet

Not at all, didn't intend to shoot the messenger.
Just speculating on the plausibility/logic behind some of the info out there.

Holmgren is quoted to have said that he wants to bring in competition.
It just doesn't seem logical to me to draft high or give up high draft picks for competition, that would be for replacement.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Not at all, didn't intend to shoot the messenger.
Just speculating on the plausibility/logic behind some of the info out there.

Holmgren is quoted to have said that he wants to bring in competition.
It just doesn't seem logical to me to draft high or give up high draft picks for competition, that would be for replacement.

I look at it this way, there are fans here who seem to think we need to do whatever it takes to get RGIII to even include throwing all our draft picks away this yr and possibly next simply cause they think he will be the "franchise" QB of the future. What I find interesting is apparently no one else is supposed to think that way either only the Skins.

I'm telling you other teams although might not need a QB will probably try to get him if they think he's better then what they got now. I said this back in Nov. when Mock drafts were coming out saying this is how the draft will go:
1-Colts (need a QB) Luck
2- Rams (need a LT) Kalil
3- Vikes (need a WR) Blackmon
4- Bucks (need a CB) Claiborne
5- Skins (need a QB) RGIII

I said any of those teams would probably take a second look at RGIII if he is supposed to be the "franchise" QB everyone thinks he is. Then there is Dolphins, Titans, Seattle, Cardinals, etc. etc. etc.

We would be better served to try to pick up a FA QB and pick up a WR/QB tandum in the first two rounds. I don't want Orton but if it's expected for him to simply be back up to whoever is drafted then I'm ok with it. I just don't want him starting otherwise we might as well keep Grossman, I think his knowledge of the scheme out weights the few less INT's Orton provides.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I look at it this way, there are fans here who seem to think we need to do whatever it takes to get RGIII to even include throwing all our draft picks away this yr and possibly next simply cause they think he will be the "franchise" QB of the future. What I find interesting is apparently no one else is supposed to think that way either only the Skins.

Although I think Griffin is the best QB prospect in this draft class I don't think the FO should 'get him at all costs'.
Call me crazy but I think the chances of Griff being available at 6 are reasonable.
Therefore I think the need/cost to move up isn't as great as people think.
Lets say we move up to the 4th or 3rd pick? The compensation would not be as the multiple 1st people have been speculating about for Griffin.
Imo we only really need to be ahead of 1 team and that's the Browns,(and doubt if the Browns really want to draft Griffin as much as they want someone to trade with them for Griffin).

I recall last year when everyone swore the Bills, Bengals, Cards and 49ers would take a QB in the1st and none did.
That's why I think there's a good chance Griff falls to us at 6.

I said any of those teams would probably take a second look at RGIII if he is supposed to be the "franchise" QB everyone thinks he is. Then there is Dolphins, Titans, Seattle, Cardinals, etc. etc. etc.

Disagree about those teams taking a second look at Griff.
Imo a team that has a potential franchise QB doesn't draft another QB just because of preference.
If those teams drafted another QB (Griffin) it means their entire organization is making a paradigm shift.

The only real threats from that list are the Dolphins and the Seahawks.
And there is a good chance that the Dolphins address their QB issue through FA.
Seattle would have to sacrifice a lot to leap frog past the 6th pick.

I don't want Orton but if it's expected for him to simply be back up to whoever is drafted then I'm ok with it. I just don't want him starting otherwise we might as well keep Grossman, I think his knowledge of the scheme out weights the few less INT's Orton provides.

Orton is a worse case scenario as a starter but even still he would be better then Rex.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Although I think Griffin is the best QB prospect in this draft class I don't think the FO should 'get him at all costs'.
Call me crazy but I think the chances of Griff being available at 6 are reasonable.
Therefore I think the need/cost to move up isn't as great as people think.
Lets say we move up to the 4th or 3rd pick? The compensation would not be as the multiple 1st people have been speculating about for Griffin.
Imo we only really need to be ahead of 1 team and that's the Browns,(and doubt if the Browns really want to draft Griffin as much as they want someone to trade with them for Griffin).

I recall last year when everyone swore the Bills, Bengals, Cards and 49ers would take a QB in the1st and none did.
That's why I think there's a good chance Griff falls to us at 6.


Disagree about those teams taking a second look at Griff.
Imo a team that has a potential franchise QB doesn't draft another QB just because of preference.
If those teams drafted another QB (Griffin) it means their entire organization is making a paradigm shift.

The only real threats from that list are the Dolphins and the Seahawks.
And there is a good chance that the Dolphins address their QB issue through FA.
Seattle would have to sacrifice a lot to leap frog past the 6th pick.

Orton is a worse case scenario as a starter but even still he would be better then Rex.

So, you truly believe that Bradford is a franchise QB? Ponder is a franchise QB? you believe Freeman is a franchise QB? McCoy is a franchise QB? Those QB's are as good or better then RGIII? cause if you can't say that then figure on those teams possibly taking RGIII and getting rid of what they got.... "IF" RGIII is truly a franchise QB.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

So, you truly believe that Bradford is a franchise QB? Ponder is a franchise QB? you believe Freeman is a franchise QB? McCoy is a franchise QB? .

No I don't believe Bradford,Ponder and McCoy are currently franchise QB.
But I do think they have the potential to be franchise QBs and....

Originally Posted by 30gut

Imo a team that has a potential franchise QB doesn't draft another QB just because of preference.
If those teams drafted another QB (Griffin) it means their entire organization is making a paradigm shift.

I do think that Freeman is the Buc's franchise QB though.
And like I said in my previous post the Browns (i.e. McCoy) are the one team we need to be ahead of because I think they're the least married to their current QB.
But, I still doubt they're ready to move on from him.

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Those QB's are as good or better then RGIII? cause if you can't say that then figure on those teams possibly taking RGIII and getting rid of what they got.... "IF" RGIII is truly a franchise QB

Huh?
How does one going about comparing whether NFL QBs are as good as college QB NFL prospect?
What basis do you use to judge?
Do you mean to ask if I think Griffin is a better prospect then some of them were? Yes.
Do I think Griffin is currently a better NFL QB? No.

You ask an unknowable question then use it as grounds to leap to an equally unknowable conclusion based on "IF" RGIII truly is franchise QB (which we can't know).

My question for you is this:
Why would a team with a potenital franchise QB get rid of their QB for another potential franchise QB?

Cheers

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by 30gut

No I don't believe Bradford,Ponder and McCoy are currently franchise QB.
But I do think they have the potential to be franchise QBs and....

I do think that Freeman is the Buc's franchise QB though.
And like I said in my previous post the Browns (i.e. McCoy) are the one team we need to be ahead of because I think they're the least married to their current QB.
But, I still doubt they're ready to move on from him.

Huh?
How does one going about comparing whether NFL QBs are as good as college QB NFL prospect?
What basis do you use to judge?
Do you mean to ask if I think Griffin is a better prospect then some of them were? Yes.
Do I think Griffin is currently a better NFL QB? No.

You ask an unknowable question then use it as grounds to leap to an equally unknowable conclusion based on "IF" RGIII truly is franchise QB (which we can't know).

My question for you is this:
Why would a team with a potenital franchise QB get rid of their QB for another potential franchise QB?

Cheers

The question is: do you think RGIII is better then those QB's right now? and your question is the exact question I'm trying to get you to. Why would a team trade away a franchise QB for RGIII if they already have one? they wouldn't, unless they are not franchise QB's.

So I'm "assuming" your thinking the Rams will not trade Bradford, the Vikes wouldn't see RGIII as an upgrade over Ponder, the Bucks wouldn't see RGIII as an upgrade over Freeman, and the Browns wouldn't see RGIII as an upgrade over McCoy. Right? thats essentially what your saying... those other QB's are franchise QB's and their respective teams will want them and RGIII will fall to the Redskins at #6. and all I'm saying is it aint happening. I think several fans here see RGIII as an upgrade over Bradford to include me, an upgrade over Ponder, an upgrade over Freeman easily, an upgrade over McCoy. So I'd be shocked if RGIII simply fell to #6.

Do I think those other QB's can be franchise QB's? probably if they are in the right scheme and their talents used properly along with a few yrs of developement. But in this day and age of instant gratification I see no way the 4 teams above us simply say "no, were happy with what we got and can wait for our QB to become a franchise QB if they ever do."