A New Look Offense or the Same but Better?

[Dirtbag59]

I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town. If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town.

You mean for what you want to see or what you expect to see?

If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.

It maybe a sublime a distinction but I think the Brees/Payton relationship is different from what I'm suggesting with a rookie QB.
Brees chose what he liked from within Payton's playbook.
I'm thinking more along the lines of adding to the playbook based on Griffin's college offense ala Rob Chudzinski and Cam Newton.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You mean for what you want to see or what you expect to see?
It maybe a sublime a distinction but I think the Brees/Payton relationship is different from what I'm suggesting with a rookie QB.
Brees chose what he liked from within Payton's playbook.
I'm thinking more along the lines of adding to the playbook based on Griffin's college offense ala Rob Chudzinski and Cam Newton.

I expect and want to see the same offense with RG3 at least as a rookie.

However I would be more then fine with some 3 or 4 wide shotgun sets with a couple run-option-pass thrown in there. I still think though that if the Shanahan experiment fails in 2 or 3 years then the next coach should come in and build a new offense from the ground up with major input from RG3 or whatever they did with Chudzinski and Newton in Carolina.

Either way I'm very comfortable with the idea of RG3 going under center and giving the other team a steady dose of bootlegs, zone runs, and play action fakes. In fact as I've been saying all along those bootlegs with RG3 are going to help open some great cutback lanes for our backs on zone runs.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

I expect and want to see the same offense with RG3 at least as a rookie.

However I would be more then fine with some 3 or 4 wide shotgun sets with a couple run-option-pass thrown in there. I still think though that if the Shanahan experiment fails in 2 or 3 years then the next coach should come in and build a new offense from the ground up with major input from RG3 or whatever they did with Chudzinski and Newton in Carolina.

Either way I'm very comfortable with the idea of RG3 going under center and giving the other team a steady dose of bootlegs, zone runs, and play action fakes. In fact as I've been saying all along those bootlegs with RG3 are going to help open some great cutback lanes for our backs on zone runs.

I'm torn.
I love Mike's Denver WCO.
When I think of the Mike's DWCO (bootleg/bootswap) I wonder if Kyle can ever fully commit to the run focused football that style of offense requires.


Kyle playcalling pallet has always leaned towards the pass.
And I'm not saying the above as good/bad value judgement but as an observation.
As long as Kyle is the OC I think we'll always pass the ball more.
And if we're going to pass more then why not run more spread?
Kyle has already shown some spread looks, why not take the offense further in that direction like the Bills, Bengals, Patriots and Packers?
And if Kyle is gonna add spread components why not bring them in from Baylor's offense?
Particularly the 5 wide empty sets.

Question:
Do you think Cam would have been as productive and dynamic in a traditional pro-style offense?

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I'm torn.
I love Mike's Denver WCO.
When I think of the Mike's DWCO (bootleg/bootswap) I wonder if Kyle can ever fully commit to the run focused football that style of offense requires.


Kyle playcalling pallet has always leaned towards the pass.
And I'm not saying the above as good/bad value judgement but as an observation.
As long as Kyle is the OC I think we'll always pass the ball more.
And if we're going to pass more then why not run more spread?
Kyle has already shown some spread looks, why not take the offense further in that direction like the Bills, Bengals, Patriots and Packers?
And if Kyle is gonna add spread components why not bring them in from Baylor's offense?
Particularly the 5 wide empty sets.

Question:
Do you think Cam would have been as productive and dynamic in a traditional pro-style offense?

Oh that reminds me, if the plan is to use the offense Kyle used in Houston with Schuab with lots of traditional 3-5-7 step drops then no, I don't want the same.

However if Kyle incorporates more of his Dad's concepts, like doing stuff off bootlegs and focusing on establishing the run then I would definitely want to see the same offense.

I mean either way Kyle is going to call the plays the question is which style is he going to use. Personally I imagine that he's going to want to move RG3 around and the reason it was more traditional in Houston (and Washington to an extent) was due to Schuab's (Grossman's) limited mobility.

[imaskin4life]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

I say same but better as long as the Shanahan's are in town. If the Shanahans get fired then at that point it may be best to bring in someone that will design an entire offense around RG3's skill set with RG3, similar to how Drew Brees and Sean Payton essentially designed the Saints offense together.

I agree. Ideally, you want to be able to utilize your player's talents to the fullest but not to the extent where you suppress your own talents as a coach/playcaller. As a coach/coordinator, you need to have the ability to run the newly installed system in real time in game situations as defenses adjust. This takes experience. You can't be learning as you go -- you need to be effective right now. You don't want to be a amatuer play-caller at running a new system going against defenses who are experts, experienced at defending it. This WILL get you fired.

The Shanahans should add some plays to highlight RG3's skillset to their playbook but they should not get TOO far away from their expertise.
For this reason its best to go "same but better". We can add some spread, option, etc. but not completely convert to a new system(unless you can run it as an expert right away OR your bringing in a coaching staff whose specialty is that offense).

I actually prefer Shanahan's playaction system anyway. It's just hard to run it when you have no protection, ineffective rushing attack, slow receivers who can't get separation or can't beat the press, and a qb who can't throw OR run. And considering all of those flaws, I actually thought we did OK last year. Imagine what we can do if we can do with the right personnel. If we have weapons and protection, they can't over-key or over-pursue the ball. It will be interesting to see how defenses defend us with all of those options available - RB/WR/TE/QB.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by imaskin4life

I agree. Ideally, you want to be able to utilize your player's talents to the fullest but not to the extent where you suppress your own talents as a coach/playcaller. As a coach/coordinator, you need to have the ability to run the newly installed system in real time in game situations as defenses adjust. This takes experience. You can't be learning as you go -- you need to be effective right now. You don't want to be a amatuer play-caller at running a new system going against defenses who are experts, experienced at defending it. This WILL get you fired.

But why do attribute negative results to adding spread concepts to the offense?

I think you do NFL coaches a disservice when you imply adding new concpets would turn them into amatuers or that or that adapting their offense equates to suppressing their own talents.

Some OCs like our very own Joe Gibbs have drastically changed their offense on the fly during the season (as has Chan Gailey w/Chiefs and Denver last year).
Rob Chudzinksi is from the San Deigo Air Coryell tree yet effectively ran an offense that featured a lot of spread elements with a sprinkle of zone read.
Chan Gailey basically runs a spread offense with the Bills.

Being able to adapt is a hallmark of innovation not of suppression.

By the time a coach makes it to NFL there aren't many concepts they haven't explored.
Therefore I don't think any offensive concepts are going to be completely 'new'.
Kyle like most OCs already runs some spread concepts:

Week 1: Redskins-28 Giants-14 - YouTube

The Shanahans should add some plays to highlight RG3's skillset to their playbook but they should not get TOO far away from their expertise.
For this reason its best to go "same but better". We can add some spread, option, etc. but not completely convert to a new system(unless you can run it as an expert right away OR your bringing in a coaching staff whose specialty is that offense).

Scratching head; 'the same but better' is different scenario then adding some spread and some option.
Which would be more like this option:

the offense formations will change and our offense will adopt and feature some of Baylor's formations and concepts, like they way the Panthers added some of Auburns formations, plays and concepts?

Except, I guess you don't want to alter the offense to as great of an extent as the Panther and the Bills?