Redskins, Cowboys could go “nuclear” over cap mess

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

We know there was a "Warning". What was the "warning" for? not to overspend. If all the owners are making an agreement (with out the NFLPA's knowledge or agreement) to not overspend then they are trying to limit the high end costs. They were putting a CAP on spending. Thats collusion. No I'm not saying the owners all came out and said "don't spend more then X amount of dollars". But one can infer by the warning what they were doing.

Why didn't the league just send the contracts back to the two teams reminding them of the "warning" and require them to "restructure" the contracts to fall within the "warning"?

If thats not their job to review contracts and to make sure they fall with in the CBA then why send the contracts to the league at all? There would be no reason. The league easily and had the opportunity to send the contracts back to the two teams reminding them of the "warning" given and could have told them to restructure them or redo the contracts to fall with the perimaters.

The problem SBXVII isn't that all you say isn't true, the problem is, that the arbitrator, IF he sticks to a purely defined role from THIS CBA, then he won't look into those issues, and will rule strictly on the procedural issue that the Cowboys and Skins have supposedly raised. On that issue alone, the League has as good a case as the Skins/Cowboys. In other words, it may be patently unfair, but it was patently unfair by the book. That, I believe is Hoophead's basic premise.

I believe, but we won't know until the arbitrator rules, that he(the arbitrator) will look into all aspects of the punishment, including the root from which it came, and if he does that, then he should rule in the Skins/Cowboys favor, because it is clear that the option clauses they used were valid negotiating tools in both the 2006 and the 2011 CBA, and the fact that no salary cap was present shouldn't restrict a team from using those same tools.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

The problem SBXVII isn't that all you say isn't true, the problem is, that the arbitrator, IF he sticks to a purely defined role from THIS CBA, then he won't look into those issues, and will rule strictly on the procedural issue that the Cowboys and Skins have supposedly raised. On that issue alone, the League has as good a case as the Skins/Cowboys. In other words, it may be patently unfair, but it was patently unfair by the book. That, I believe is Hoophead's basic premise.

I believe, but we won't know until the arbitrator rules, that he(the arbitrator) will look into all aspects of the punishment, including the root from which it came, and if he does that, then he should rule in the Skins/Cowboys favor, because it is clear that the option clauses they used were valid negotiating tools in both the 2006 and the 2011 CBA, and the fact that no salary cap was present shouldn't restrict a team from using those same tools.

We need some die hard Cowpukes or Redskins senator to raise a stink about this.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

The problem SBXVII isn't that all you say isn't true, the problem is, that the arbitrator, IF he sticks to a purely defined role from THIS CBA, then he won't look into those issues, and will rule strictly on the procedural issue that the Cowboys and Skins have supposedly raised. On that issue alone, the League has as good a case as the Skins/Cowboys. In other words, it may be patently unfair, but it was patently unfair by the book. That, I believe is Hoophead's basic premise.

I believe, but we won't know until the arbitrator rules, that he(the arbitrator) will look into all aspects of the punishment, including the root from which it came, and if he does that, then he should rule in the Skins/Cowboys favor, because it is clear that the option clauses they used were valid negotiating tools in both the 2006 and the 2011 CBA, and the fact that no salary cap was present shouldn't restrict a team from using those same tools.

Ok, I'm confused cause I keep hearing this but how can an Arbitrator rule on a case using current rules/CBA for a period not covered by these rules? My arguement is I believe the Arbitrator will be forced to use the old CBA at most and or the CBA that was in place at the time the Skins and Cowboys made their contracts and whatever CAP was in place at the time. We know there was no CAP so he will have to look at what the CBA rules were at the time and what 'warnings' were given. I'm also thinking he will see the "warning" as colluding and will take the punishment away from the two teams cause what the league did was illegal.

I think your idea is the Arbitrator is looking solely at whether the Exec Committee and or Commish can with the current CBA rules punish the two teams. I think he also will have the right to look at the CBA that was in place and decide if the two teams even broke a rule for which they should be punished for. I think the major points the two teams should bring up is there was no CAP and the league approved or passed off on the contracts with out having the two teams notified they violated an agreement or CBA and told to restructure them again to fall within the perimaters.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Ok, I'm confused cause I keep hearing this but how can an Arbitrator rule on a case using current rules/CBA for a period not covered by these rules? My arguement is I believe the Arbitrator will be forced to use the old CBA at most and or the CBA that was in place at the time the Skins and Cowboys made their contracts and whatever CAP was in place at the time. We know there was no CAP so he will have to look at what the CBA rules were at the time and what 'warnings' were given. I'm also thinking he will see the "warning" as colluding and will take the punishment away from the two teams cause what the league did was illegal.

I think your idea is the Arbitrator is looking solely at whether the Exec Committee and or Commish can with the current CBA rules punish the two teams. I think he also will have the right to look at the CBA that was in place and decide if the two teams even broke a rule for which they should be punished for. I think the major points the two teams should bring up is there was no CAP and the league approved or passed off on the contracts with out having the two teams notified they violated an agreement or CBA and told to restructure them again to fall within the perimaters.

Very simply, because the penalty being imposed is being imposed pursuant to the current CBA. Sure, it is being done for actions that were taken during the prior CBA but, but, as it affects the current and future dealings between the NFLPA and the NFL, the procedural basis for imposing the penalty is the agreement governing those current and future dealings. i.e. the current CBA.

[HoopheadVII]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Very simply, because the penalty being imposed is being imposed pursuant to the current CBA. Sure, it is being done for actions that were taken during the prior CBA but, but, as it affects the current and future dealings between the NFLPA and the NFL, the procedural basis for imposing the penalty is the agreement governing those current and future dealings. i.e. the current CBA.

Neither CBA deals with the relationship between the League and Clubs and any penalties the League may impose on the Clubs at all.

Because they wanted to touch the salary cap, and because the CBA deals with the salary cap, they had to agree with the NFLPA to modify the CBA to include the new penalties.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Ok, I'm confused cause I keep hearing this but how can an Arbitrator rule on a case using current rules/CBA for a period not covered by these rules? My arguement is I believe the Arbitrator will be forced to use the old CBA at most and or the CBA that was in place at the time the Skins and Cowboys made their contracts and whatever CAP was in place at the time. We know there was no CAP so he will have to look at what the CBA rules were at the time and what 'warnings' were given. I'm also thinking he will see the "warning" as colluding and will take the punishment away from the two teams cause what the league did was illegal.

I think your idea is the Arbitrator is looking solely at whether the Exec Committee and or Commish can with the current CBA rules punish the two teams. I think he also will have the right to look at the CBA that was in place and decide if the two teams even broke a rule for which they should be punished for. I think the major points the two teams should bring up is there was no CAP and the league approved or passed off on the contracts with out having the two teams notified they violated an agreement or CBA and told to restructure them again to fall within the perimaters.

It really goes to the one point none of us knows, and that is what specifically did the Skins/Cowboys appeal to the arbitrator. But we will know more, once the arbitrator approves or denies the league's motion for dismissal. IF the arbitrator is looking solely at the procedures used to enact the salary cap punishment, then he most likely will dismiss based on the league's motion.

If it goes to a full hearing, I am sure the two teams will try to bring all those arguments up, but again, the arbitrator will have the say as to how far he thinks his jurisdiction goes. I don't think it's clear cut that the two teams will be able to bring up all the issues from the 2006 CBA and 2010 uncapped year, because the arbitrator could easily declare those issues outside the scope of his inquiry.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

It really goes to the one point none of us knows, and that is what specifically did the Skins/Cowboys appeal to the arbitrator. But we will know more, once the arbitrator approves or denies the league's motion for dismissal. IF the arbitrator is looking solely at the procedures used to enact the salary cap punishment, then he most likely will dismiss based on the league's motion.

If it goes to a full hearing, I am sure the two teams will try to bring all those arguments up, but again, the arbitrator will have the say as to how far he thinks his jurisdiction goes. I don't think it's clear cut that the two teams will be able to bring up all the issues from the 2006 CBA and 2010 uncapped year, because the arbitrator could easily declare those issues outside the scope of his inquiry.

Agree 100%. Your right we do not know what is in the appeal. If it's just the punishment your probably right. I'd hope the Skins and Boys put everything in it...ie; that there was no CAP and should not be punished, that the warning was illegal, that the NFLPA was black mailed or bribed into accepting the agreed punishment, and the punishment itself. Then let the Arbitrator decide what he can hear or not.