Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting

[mredskins]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

I am an advocate of gun rights, and I think that every law abiding citizen should be able to own and posess firearms. In fact both of my parents hold concealed weapons licenses.

HOWEVER, i do not feel that the mass shooting in colorado could have been prevented by having everyone in the theater packing, as popular opinion has said.

Things are very bad in the US in 2012, but it's not so bad that it's like the wild wild west where everyone needs to carry a gun to survive.

There are some people out there who aren't psychologically capable of having the responsibility of gun ownership, and there are people who are "afraid of the world" so to speak that would fire at the drop of a hat. People like that give gun owners a bad name.

My wife works for a woman who two summers ago, was robbed by a kid with a BB gun. She was severely traumatized as a result, went right out and bought a pistol, and despite not having a concealed weapon permit, she keeps it in her purse everywhere she goes. 3 occasions this past year the woman has gotten startled at work and reached for the pistol before calming down. She is going to kill someone one day unjustifiably. This is the kind of person who will see shrubs moving and open fire, only to find out after the fact that a child or someone was reaching through the bushes to get something.

The tragedy in Colorado is a tragedy IMO and nothing could have prevented it. To implement all the types of security that Joe Public is calling for now as a result, puts us effectively in a police state where the military/police check you everywhere you go...not the solution IMO

Great post; I totally agree. I personally would never own a gun but I also think a sane law abiding citizen should have the right to have one if they choose.

[JoeRedskin]

The guy was had clearly gone over the edge. I doubt anything was going to stop him from causing death and destruction.

One of the incendiary devices appeared to be improvised napalm and others appeared to be mixtures that, if combined with other materials, could cause an explosion, the official said.

"We talk about motive and defenses and deliberation, and make no mistake, this apartment was designed to kill whoever entered it," Aurora Police Chief Daniel Oates said. And who was most likely to enter that location? "It was going to be an officer."

The apartment also contained about 30 aerial shells used in fireworks displays, roughly the size of golf balls and filled with black powder, wired to a control box in the kitchen that was defused with water, another law enforcement official said. There were also jars of black powder, liquid accelerants and other flammable chemicals in the apartment, the source said.

Massacre suspect's neighbor: 'I'm counting my lucky stars' - CNN.com

[JoeRedskin]

Stepping away from the "Ban Guns" talk. How about we remember those who died:

Remembering the Colorado shooting victims

The six year old girl who was killed had just learned how to swim. My five year old girl is going to her grandparents today and can't wait to show them that she can now swim.

One guy had been married for a year and was celebrating his birthday.

My heart goes out the families and loved ones.

Life is precious. Never forget that.

[Hog1]

Joe brings a poignant....pause. While we have strong opinions on both sides of the fence on this issue, the real tragedy lies with those of the victims and their families....

[Redskins8588]

I know that no matter what I say I am pretty confident that I will not change anyone's opinions of guns, but what I do want to say is that first I am sorry for all of those families that lost someone. I would not wish that on anyone. My 11 year old son attended the midnight primer in Erie, PA, just the thought isvery frightful.

What I do want to say is that the media spends a lot of effort on banning guns when tragedy like this happens, but nothing or very little is said when guns are used for good or seen in a good light.

14-year-old boy shoots armed intruder, protects siblings

I have to believe the worst would have happened if this brave young man did not take action to protect his siblings.

All I really am trying to get atis that for people to have a knee jerk reaction and blame guns is kind of wrong. This guy had distruction on his mind and guns or no guns he was going to give it his best, that is clearly evident with the boobie trapped apartment and bomb in the theater.

I dont want to offened anyone and I really dont want to get into the gun ban debate, I am just hrowing in my two cents.... take it or leave it...

[Chico23231]

Sux to return back from a 3 day vacation from the outer banx and hear this. I always look forward to get away from internet access, limited tv, and i just like to turn the phone off as well...my sister called me with the news tonight heading home. Thoughts and prayers for the families.

A couple things stand out...1. Colorado AGAIN. very strange...id be asking alot of questions if i lived there 2. you can buy 4 weapons in a month's time, isnt that a red flag? 3. How do you get hands on explosives?

Still early in the story, maybe those questions have been answered.

[firstdown]

I don't know how a lawyer or anyone could defend him.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by firstdown

I don't know how a lawyer or anyone could defend him.

Public defender. They have to. Their only job here is possibly helping him get many life sentences as compared to the death penalty. That or the "plead insanity", which I somehow doubt since he's planned this over the course of months.

Originally Posted by mooby

He looks like a nut. I'm presuming they are going to go with the insanity defense.

That lawyer has that look like "WHY THE **** ME??". I bet they drew straws to see who would represent him and she lost...lol

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Public defender. They have to. Their only job here is possibly helping him get many life sentences as compared to the death penalty. That or the "plead insanity", which I somehow doubt since he's planned this over the course of months.


That lawyer has that look like "WHY THE **** ME??". I bet they drew straws to see who would represent him and she lost...lol

Premeditation really has nothing to do with the insanity defense. The insanity defense is all about one knowing whether one's actions are right or wrong. You can get your morals mixed up in a premeditated way. Or, put differently, you can be both premeditated and insane in your actions.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Premeditation really has nothing to do with the insanity defense. The insanity defense is all about one knowing whether one's actions are right or wrong. You can get your morals mixed up in a premeditated way. Or, put differently, you can be both premeditated and insane in your actions.

True enough, at the same time, pre-meditation goes to (1) whether or not you were under any immediate delusion when you committed the act; and (2) forms the basis for inquiry into whether or not you knew what you were doing as you carried out the planning.

Q: You purchased materials to create toxic gasses and to booby trap your apartment?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I thought I was the Joker and needed to protect my hideout.
Q: You aware that the Joker is considered a criminal?
A: He was considered insane and simply was misunderstood by society.
Q: You understood the Joker kills people?
A: Yes.
Q: And that society punished the Joker for killing others?
A: Yes.
Q: And by copying the Joker, you would be doing actions that would also be punished by society.
A: uhh....

Premeditation, while not determinative, is certainly relevant to exploring the motive. ... why did he do it? Unless he was under the provable delusion that he was somehow saving mankind, I don't see him getting away from the "moral depravity" of his planning.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

True enough, at the same time, pre-meditation goes to (1) whether or not you were under any immediate delusion when you committed the act; and (2) forms the basis for inquiry into whether or not you knew what you were doing as you carried out the planning.

Q: You purchased materials to create toxic gasses and to booby trap your apartment?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I thought I was the Joker and needed to protect my hideout.
Q: You aware that the Joker is considered a criminal?
A: He was considered insane and simply was misunderstood by society.
Q: You understood the Joker kills people?
A: Yes.
Q: And that society punished the Joker for killing others?
A: Yes.
Q: And by copying the Joker, you would be doing actions that would also be punished by society.
A: uhh....

Premeditation, while not determinative, is certainly relevant to exploring the motive. ... why did he do it? Unless he was under the provable delusion that he was somehow saving mankind, I don't see him getting away from the "moral depravity" of his planning.

Thank you for your legal expertise! Once again I bow to your jurisprudent wisdom.

However, I think my argument still remains against a couple of people in this thread who have at least implied that premeditation is flat-out determinative regarding the insanity defense.

[mooby]

He looks like a nut. I'm presuming they are going to go with the insanity defense.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by mooby

He looks like a nut. I'm presuming they are going to go with the insanity defense.

Not a defense likely to succeed, IMHO. Here's the statute for CO's insanity defense:

16-8-101.5. Insanity defined - offenses committed on and after July 1, 1995.
(1) The applicable test of insanity shall be: (a) A person who is so diseased or defective in mind at the time of the commission of the act as to be incapable of distinguishing right from wrong with respect to that act is not accountable; except that care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law; or

(b) A person who suffered from a condition of mind caused by mental disease or defect that prevented the person from forming a culpable mental state that is an essential element of a crime charged, but care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law.

(2) As used in subsection (1) of this section: (a) "Diseased or defective in mind" does not refer to an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.

(b) "Mental disease or defect" includes only those severely abnormal mental conditions that grossly and demonstrably impair a person's perception or understanding of reality and that are not attributable to the voluntary ingestion of alcohol or any other psychoactive substance but does not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.

Session Laws of Colorado 1995 - Chapter 26

According to the statute, as I read it, it is an affirmative defense. Meaning Holmes must prove that - as he was formulatting the crime - he lacked the cognitive ability to distinguish right from wrong. [Note the limitation stated in the second part of the statute: "care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions because, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law."]

Given the amount of planning, the nature of the crime and the booby trapped apartment, I think it would be next to impossible for him to prove he was under some delusion that prevented him from distinguishing right from wrong.

[mredskins]

I still think a worst penalty is to rot in a cell vs. being put to death.

[CultBrennan59]

This dude is crazy, he just looks like a nut. And yeah, thats what I don't like about lawyers, when they defend the clearly guilty.