do we show our hand to soon (Barrow allowed to seek trade)

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

I know some of you guys don't like to criticize our team, but the fact of the matter is that our front office has made the Skins a laughing stock on most websites.

Really?
Then by all means lets make sure the skins change everything they do so that aren't the laughing stocks on all these websites. I mean that's what they should care about right? Being the laughing stock of websites. Yeam that proves they need a GM. I love how everyone is bashing the decisions from this off season and they haven't even played a game yet. I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to. I am not saying that they have done perfectly this off season. I am saying that not one of us has any idea how these moves will pan out. If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have.

[paulskinsfan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Really?
Then by all means lets make sure the skins change everything they do so that aren't the laughing stocks on all these websites. I mean that's what they should care about right? Being the laughing stock of websites. Yeam that proves they need a GM. I love how everyone is bashing the decisions from this off season and they haven't even played a game yet. I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to. I am not saying that they have done perfectly this off season. I am saying that not one of us has any idea how these moves will pan out. If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have.

Folks, Im looking at the HISTORY of the front office over the last 5-8 years with Cerrato and Snyder at the helm. Now its Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder.

"I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to."

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not).

Stephen Alexander (2nd round 1998)
Skip Hicks (3rd round 1998)
Mark Fischer (5th round 1998)
Nate Stimson (4th round 1999)
Derek G. Smith (5th round 1999)
Lloyd Harrison (3rd round 2000)
Michael Moore (4th round 2000)
Quincy Sanders (5th round 2000)
Sage Rosenfels (4th Round 2001)

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in:

Mark Carrier
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Marco Coleman
Irving Fryar
Jeff George
Andre Reed
Dana Stubblefield
Jerimiah Trotter

I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers! Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.

"If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have."

Nice. You disagree with me so you attack me instead of looking for a counter argument. Gibbs does have this team going the right direction, but he is far from bullet proof in his role as personnell evaluator. Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato sold the farm for Brunnell, and traded a 3rd round pick. Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick. Then they signed a 34 year old free agent middle linebacker and overpaid for him. Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation. So there is evidence that we need a GM.

I love Joe Gibbs. He is one of the best coaches of all time, but he should have a full time GM, that's all Im saying. This is not a site where we all drink the kool aid and say how great we are, we should be able to disagree without insulting one another.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Folks, Im looking at the HISTORY of the front office over the last 5-8 years with Cerrato and Snyder at the helm. Now its Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder.

"I think we ought to implement a new rule that there can be no bitching and moaning unless there is proven reason to."

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not).

No reason for us to be calling each other idiots, jackasses, meatheads, etc.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Stephen Alexander (2nd round 1998)
Skip Hicks (3rd round 1998)
Mark Fischer (5th round 1998)
Nate Stimson (4th round 1999)
Derek G. Smith (5th round 1999)
Lloyd Harrison (3rd round 2000)
Michael Moore (4th round 2000)
Quincy Sanders (5th round 2000)
Sage Rosenfels (4th Round 2001)

Michael Moore found his true calling making politically charged movies!

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in:

Mark Carrier
Deion Sanders
Bruce Smith
Marco Coleman
Irving Fryar
Jeff George
Andre Reed
Dana Stubblefield
Jerimiah Trotter

Trotter was a young, all-pro linebacker entering his prime when he got here. Who was to know he'd tear up his knee. I don't think Fryar or Reed had any sort of financial impact on the team really. Stubblefield was a bust. The rest were brought in here basically to be quick fixes, get us that elusive ring we fans had grown accustomed to but hadn't sniffed in years. It was a poorly planned quick fix solution by Snydato (Snyder and Cerrato) but also poor coaching factors in as does Eddie Murray and all those other kickers missing them damn field goals that year.

I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers! Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.

I guess Crazy Canuck can respond to this portion and whether or not salary cap wise this was really that big a hit. I think they, understandably, expected 2 to 3 years of solid production from Barrow based on his history. And who knows, it still might happen.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened. Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato sold the farm for Brunnell, and traded a 3rd round pick. Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick. Then they signed a 34 year old free agent middle linebacker and overpaid for him. Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation. So there is evidence that we need a GM.

Mike Shanahan? I'm actually not even positive about that one. Didn't know we could have done the Portis/Bailey deal straight up.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Well guess what jackass, Ive got a reason to! Look at the personell moves these idiots have made, that's why we are in the hole we are in. Thanks to Cerrato and Snyder, the following free agents and drafts have built our team (not)...

Our middle round picks SUCKED for years!!! This is partially the reason we can't build a team. Secondly, lets look at the free agents Danny Boy and Vinny Cerrato have brought in...

It is well documented that Gibbs is the personell guy now so your points about the reign of Cerrato and Synder as the defacto GM are moot(although I'd agree they are well founded points in past seasons)

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

I'll bet we are still paying on some of those loser underachievers!

You'd lose that bet since we are not paying any them. Of course they WERE drags for a while but then again I already said I basically agree with your assesment of Snyderatto.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Now, some of you have been saying, well, siging Barrow was a great move at the time because he had no history of injury. To that I say, he was freakin 34 years old, what the hell did you freakin expect? A middle linebacker is 34 years old and we sign him, not to the verteran minimum, but to a 6 year $13 million dollar contract with a 2.5 million dollar signing bonus! Give me a break, its not like he was a kicker, he was a freakin middle linebacker, one of the most physically demanding positions on the field and we signed a 34 year old and gave him a BIG contract for his age. Oh Ive got a reason to bitch and moan, all Redskin fans do.

Well we'll just disagree on this I guess. I personally believe it was reasonable to expect him to remain relatively healthy for 3 years. The contract was not "BIG" for his age as you suggest though. It was a reasonable contract for a multiple time pro bowler with no injury history at all. In fact It was a bargain if he ends up playing near the level he played in his last year with the Giants for the three year life that the contract was meant for.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

"If we make the damn super bowl will all you shut the f$%^ up? Actually if we make the super bowl will you apologize for being idiots? Not saying you are idiots but you could turn out to be totally wrong(making you and idot) or right(making you a genius) but unless you are psychic then stop proclaiming we need to fix a problem we don;t even knwo we if we have."

Nice. You disagree with me so you attack me instead of looking for a counter argument.

The heck??
-First:it wasn't directed solely at you. I thought it was pretty clear that it was a general statement towards those with certain unfounded pessimistic views. Of which you appear to be one in this case.
-Second:it wasn't an attack at all. No where did I call anyone a name. I implied that I thought you all were wrong and that if you were wrong I would feel justified in calling you all idiots but I was careful to state that you indeed could end up being right and therefore geniuses. I actually said 'Not saying you are idiots'.
-Third: I provided multiple arguments but apparently in your haste to reply you seemed to forget that. Funny how you spent most of your post attempting to debunk my arguments but during the typing of that one sentence you conviently ignored what you had been doing this since that wouldn't jive with your premise that I didn't provide 'counter aguments'.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Show me a coach who has won a superbowl with complete say over personnell decisions. It hasn't happened.

Stellar point and one scares me in its truthfulness. Hopefully Gibbs will turn the tide on this one.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Then, when they couldve done the Ports/Bailey deal straight up, they threw in another pick.

Huh? So they actually just GAVE denver another pick for no reason? I bet Denver was pretty happy when the contract showed up and there was a phantom pick included. This has been mentioned in some places but has never been substantiated that Denver would have done the deal without the pick. Pure rumor and is therefore much less relavant.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

Then they mishandled the Rod Gardner situation AND the Laverneous Coles situation.

Still not one person has said how these situiations should have been handled differently in this whole thread. I am still waiting for someone to say what should have been done instead.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

So there is evidence that we need a GM.

Not much of that is really evidence since it is hard to argue that any real personell mistakes were made outside of the Brunell decision.

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

This is not a site where we all drink the kool aid and say how great we are, we should be able to disagree without insulting one another.

It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.

[jacobyfan]

This makes me think of Philly fans who will find ANY EXCUSE to boo. I remember watching a Eagles game where they were up 3 TDs in the third quarter and the punter shanked one about 25-30 yards. The whole place errupted in boos. Of course our situation isn't analogous, really. But it just makes me think of their tendency to try and find the absolute worst in the situation. I remember when they went down to the bucs in the championship game at home by a few points and the whole place went almost dead silent for the rest of the game. It was like everyone was just thinking, "well here we go again!"

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

It's also not a site where unrelenting pessimism goes unnoticed. There are a few of those here. I can't say whether you fall in this category but your post surely lumped in there at least temporarily(for the life of this thread). I personally get angry at those who purport to "keep it real" when all they do is propogate pessimistic views of the team the supposedly love. I wouldn't for a moment include you in this distinguished (and small) group but your views on the FO mirror their's so my frame of mind was probably somehwat skewed. I'll apologize if I said anything that could be construed as an insult. It was not meant in any way to be such. I in fact try incredibly hard NOT to insult people here and I feel like I honored that sentiment in my original post. I simply think you are incredibly wrong in much of your argument.

Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbs fan. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
Describing someones post as "bitching and moaning" is going to piss people off. That started the name calling.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbsl. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.

In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it

[MTK]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

In FRPLG's defense, I think there are a lot of people who jump the gun and assume the worst right away before anything happens. We lost Smoot and Pierc? Well our defense will suck now. Barrow got injured? Well why didn't we see that coming? We didn't draft Roscoe Crosby? Well, he's going to be an All-Pro somewhere else...it just goes on and on.

I know we haven't been very good the past several years. But that doesn't mean we haven't made some good individual personnel decisions over the years. I imagine what gets FRPLG upset is the failure some people have to wait for things to play out before they form an opinion on it

I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I agree with you and with what FRPLG said.

He's not saying we shouldn't disagree, he just has a problem with the people who always seem to think the sky is falling, and I can definitely relate.

I think I am having a problem communicating my beliefs here but Matty has it right. I just don't like the "glass is always and forever totally empty" type people. There are only a select few here but they get to me.
And I think it a very good that we have differing opinions because it allows us to hash through skewed media coverage and get down to brass tax on most issues. I just would like those who have any opinion, especially those that are contrary, to support them with some facts and to offer alternatives when necessary. This leads to a quality discussion where everyone can digest an opinion and understand the base of it and decide whther they agree or not. When a statement is made like "they handled [this] situation poorly so they all need to be fired!" or "we need a GM because Gibbs isn't any good at personel management" but there is no support for the statement it doesn't contribuite much to the discussion.
This might come as a surprise but I tend to agree that we would probably be better off if we had a true GM with gibbs only having major personel decision contributions but not final say and Snyder simply handling contracts. Cerrato can go work for ESPN for all I care. My support for this would be that
A) as paul noted there is not a long line of headcoach/GM types winning superbowls
B)Gibbs has never been the go to guy on personel issues so there isn't any history to grant him unconditional trust in such areas
C)Snyder is so beholden to Gibbs that a GM as an unbiased middleman might add a layer of reason and quality

But I also consider Gibbs to be one the top football minds in NFL history. He has proven that he can coach a team and design a scheme to win games. Given that history and the documented analysis of his qualities as a talent manager and honetsy I am willing to give him some leeway when it comes to personel management. I am in no way convinced he can do it but I think giving him a shot is only fair. He really has done nothing that any of can point to that shows for a fact he isn't any good at it. Yet.

[paulskinsfan]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

Self-proclaimed Pessimism Cop FRPLG-
Believe or not, not everybody agrees with all of your opinions, or all of the redskins moves. The great part about the Warpath is people have different opinions and we can all talk about it. We do not have all be company "Yes" men. To disagree with a Redskins player move or any other descion made by the Reedskins is not being a pessimist or a bad Redskins fan. I realize you are a huge Dan Snyder, Cerrato and Gibbs fan, that is great. I am huge Gibbs fan. But don't get mad if somebody disagrees with you. Because it sounds to me that you are questioning peoples (Redskins) patriotism if they do not agree with a Redskins move.
Describing someones post as "bitching and moaning" is going to piss people off. That started the name calling.

This is my point too. I am not "the sky is falling" type of fan, but I just disagree with the leadership in the front office that's all, I think they make poor draft and free agent decisions.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by paulskinsfan

This is my point too. I am not "the sky is falling" type of fan, but I just disagree with the leadership in the front office that's all, I think they make poor draft and free agent decisions.

Dude, there is one HUGE inherent flaw in your reasoning. All of your posts today have directed criticism towards Snyder and Cerrato, and the moves they have made in the past.

IT'S IRRELEVANT. Gibbs calls the shots now. Snyder heads up negotiations and salary cap management, and Cerrato heads up scouting. But in the end, players are Gibbs' call (with lots of help from Gregg Williams on D guys).

Criticizing the current front office for decisions made before Gibbs arrived is just plain asinine. It makes no sense. Your problem is you're looking back too much. I don't know why you would want to look back at the dark ages so much, when the presence of Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Gregg Williams, and Greg Blache gives us so much to look forward to in the future.

Have hope. Last year's free agency and draft success should give you reason to feel optimistic. The change you want ALREADY HAPPENED. Snyder and Cerrato don't call the shots anymore, Joe Gibbs does.

[paulskinsfan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Dude, there is one HUGE inherent flaw in your reasoning. All of your posts today have directed criticism towards Snyder and Cerrato, and the moves they have made in the past.

IT'S IRRELEVANT. Gibbs calls the shots now. Snyder heads up negotiations and salary cap management, and Cerrato heads up scouting. But in the end, players are Gibbs' call (with lots of help from Gregg Williams on D guys).

Criticizing the current front office for decisions made before Gibbs arrived is just plain asinine. It makes no sense. Your problem is you're looking back too much. I don't know why you would want to look back at the dark ages so much, when the presence of Joe Gibbs, Joe Bugel, Gregg Williams, and Greg Blache gives us so much to look forward to in the future.

Have hope. Last year's free agency and draft success should give you reason to feel optimistic. The change you want ALREADY HAPPENED. Snyder and Cerrato don't call the shots anymore, Joe Gibbs does.

Can someone clear this up for me, because I thought that all draft decisions were the result of a "team" effort between Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder. Don't they compile notebooks on all draft prospects and make the decisions together? Of course Danny Boy will side with Gibbs on all matters, but if memory serves me, I believe the threesome is still calling the personnell shots. I really don't see Phillip Daniels as anything but a bust SO FAR. To say he played well for the money doesn't make sense to me because he only played in 4 games, and his history is an injury plagued one.