Should Mike Shanahan be fired?

[REDSKINS4ever]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Bottom line is MS has to take the blame for the defense. He came in and changed it. It's been worse since he's taken over. And even with Carriker and Orakpo we were still at best an average defense. Changing to the 3-4 has not been a good move and the numbers back it up. RG3 buys him another year.

Mike Shanahan will live out his 5 year contract. He has Bruce Allen to back him up. Shanahan told Snyder from the beginning that this was a rebuilding program. He's in year 3 now and he and Bruce Allen are slowly but surely cleaning up the gigantic mess left behind by Vinny Cerratto. Switching to the 3-4 defense truly wasn't a bad move. The Redskins have given up tons of yardage this year, but have still managed to attain turnovers and turn them into points thanks in part to the defense. The Redskins were ranked 10th in defense after 11 games last season and 13th once the season was over. Granted, the defense did take 1,000 steps back this year. Getting rid of Atogwe and Landry hurt the Redskins more than anyone thought it would have. And let's not mention Brandon Meriweather's perpetual injury and Tanard Jackson's 1 year suspension.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever

Mike Shanahan will live out his 5 year contract. He has Bruce Allen to back him up. Shanahan told Snyder from the beginning that this was a rebuilding program. He's in year 3 now and he and Bruce Allen are slowly but surely cleaning up the gigantic mess left behind by Vinny Cerratto. Switching to the 3-4 defense truly wasn't a bad move. The Redskins have given up tons of yardage this year, but have still managed to attain turnovers and turn them into points thanks in part to the defense. The Redskins were ranked 10th in defense after 11 games last season and 13th once the season was over. Granted, the defense did take 1,000 steps back this year. Getting rid of Atogwe and Landry hurt the Redskins more than anyone thought it would have. And let's not mention Brandon Meriweather's perpetual injury and Tanard Jackson's 1 year suspension.

So tired of the Vinny argument. MS and Bruce have to be held accountable for trading away picks for McNabb, for trading away picks for Brown, changing the defense and low balling Rogers. Atogwe couldn't play anymore so it didn't matter if he left and they didn't want to mess around with LL cause of his injury. Then you bring in band aids..one has a drug problem and can't play. Then you over pay Morgan and he's not playing up to his pay check. IMO he gets one more year but he needs to make the playoffs next year. 4 years in a row of no post season play at 7 mil per year???? Who keeps their job in the NFL with that record??? NO ONE.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

So tired of the Vinny argument. MS and Bruce have to be held accountable for trading away picks for McNabb, for trading away picks for Brown, changing the defense and low balling Rogers. Atogwe couldn't play anymore so it didn't matter if he left and they didn't want to mess around with LL cause of his injury. Then you bring in band aids..one has a drug problem and can't play. Then you over pay Morgan and he's not playing up to his pay check. IMO he gets one more year but he needs to make the playoffs next year. 4 years in a row of no post season play at 7 mil per year???? Who keeps their job in the NFL with that record??? NO ONE.

Minor point I suppose but to be clear we did not lowball Carlos. We got Brown and what ended up being Niles Paul for a 3rd round pick, not multiple picks for JB

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Minor point I suppose but to be clear we did not lowball Carlos. We got Brown and what ended up being Niles Paul for a 3rd round pick, not multiple picks for JB

I vaguely recall you saying at the time that Carlos wanted out. Not sure if he'd have been productive had he stayed. Disgruntled employee situation.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Minor point I suppose but to be clear we did not lowball Carlos. We got Brown and what ended up being Niles Paul for a 3rd round pick, not multiple picks for JB

Well they certainly pissed him off and Los had no desire to stay. I'm assuming because Hall got more $ than he was offered? Regardless... our best cover corner walked and had a career year in another uniform.

The Brown trade has been a mess. He can't stay on the field and Paul is a non factor... so far.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

So tired of the Vinny argument. MS and Bruce have to be held accountable for trading away picks for McNabb, for trading away picks for Brown, changing the defense and low balling Rogers. Atogwe couldn't play anymore so it didn't matter if he left and they didn't want to mess around with LL cause of his injury. Then you bring in band aids..one has a drug problem and can't play. Then you over pay Morgan and he's not playing up to his pay check. IMO he gets one more year but he needs to make the playoffs next year. 4 years in a row of no post season play at 7 mil per year???? Who keeps their job in the NFL with that record??? NO ONE.

Indeed. Three years is enough time to turn things around where it matters - winning - if you have a real plan and know what your doing. Three years is a lifetime in the NFL. The league is structured to promote parity, through the draft, salary cap, FA etc. A five year contract for a coach is still fine, but if he can't improve the record in year three it's just wishful thinking year 4 or 5 will be better.

The other thing is, this regime has made as many really bad FA moves as the last. McNabb, Brown, a litany of defensive players that aren't making an impact. I like the way GTripp said it, Gibbs turned it around by year 2 with smart FA moves and solid coaching. Mike's had three years and we're NO CLOSER TO BEING A COMPETITIVE TEAM than when he took over, period.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Indeed. Three years is enough time to turn things around where it matters - winning - if you have a real plan and know what your doing. Three years is a lifetime in the NFL. The league is structured to promote parity, through the draft, salary cap, FA etc. A five year contract for a coach is still fine, but if he can't improve the record in year three it's just wishful thinking year 4 or 5 will be better.

The other thing is, this regime has made as many really bad FA moves as the last. McNabb, Brown, a litany of defensive players that aren't making an impact. I like the way GTripp said it, Gibbs turned it around by year 2 with smart FA moves and solid coaching. Mike's had three years and we're NO CLOSER TO BEING A COMPETITIVE TEAM than when he took over, period.

I was struck by the matter of fact manner you use. I must ask, to make your statement carry any weight or validity....what exactly is your experience on subject matters such as this? What is your level of expertise in NFL matter?

If you

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Hog1

I was struck by the matter of fact manner you use. I must ask, to make your statement carry any weight or validity....what exactly is your experience on subject matters such as this? What is your level of expertise in NFL matter?

If you

Too many examples to list of coaches that turn a broken franchise around and achieve a winning record and/or even the playoffs. But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

So I guess observation is my answer. Three years is a long time in any sport, but the way NFL promotes parity through it's structure (think about how baseball doesn't have a salary cap) I think you see it here the most.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Too many examples to list of coaches that turn a broken franchise around and achieve a winning record and/or even the playoffs. But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

So I guess observation is my answer. Three years is a long time in any sport, but the way NFL promotes parity through it's structure (think about how baseball doesn't have a salary cap) I think you see it here the most.

Some of these teams that were turned around arent exactly model franchises. Lions had a QB that finally stop being injured. They had one good year and are struggling again. Niners was more about Singletary than anything else. They actually had a good team, just one that refused to play for a guy that relied on insults instead of coaching. The Bengals are the same inconsistent team they usually are with a random winning season here and there. The record is a little better as a whole than 10 years ago but no one considers them world beaters. If the Bengals are what we are aspiring to be, then why care who our coach is?

The situations of all three were completely different than what the Redskins had three years ago.

The biggest problem is that the Redskins have been run by a fan. One that calls for heads to roll after a year or two, and that has been one of the problems of this team. There has been no continuity or chemistry. Especially given that Snyder will most likely look to go back to the days of Snyderatto if he fires Shanny. Which does not mean winning, in case you missed the last 20 years.

To say we are no closer to being competitive is to call RG3 a scrub. There is no way that statement is even remotely true. I get that a lot want to win something so bad that going back to winning the offseason every year is a goal. Its just a stupid goal. Win today or be fired tomorrow is not going to cut it in the NFL. We have been through 20 years of that and some are desperate to go back. I am personally not that excited about winning the offseason just so fans can claim that we have won something.

Shanny has been here 2 1/2 years. Second year was a lockout so FA was not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. First year Shanny deserves a lot of blame, because he actually thought he could win now. He deserves his fair share for that but it seems we are moving to build through the draft the last two drafts and I dont want that to stop. A coaching change now just means a brand new O-line being put in place (since the ZBS isnt exactly common) as well as massive changes to everything else. How long will that rebuild take? According to some here, it should only take 3 games. I call bs to that assertion. Does he deserve 10 years? No, and I never said he should get it. But this carousel at coaching and philosophies will never work.

As for Parity, the last 10 or so years, the same parity has existed in MLB as has in the NFL. 3 teams won it all twice with a few breakthroughs from a couple of other teams.

If the goal is to ruin RG3, then by all means, keep screaming for a new coach every year.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Some of these teams that were turned around arent exactly model franchises. Lions had a QB that finally stop being injured. They had one good year and are struggling again. Niners was more about Singletary than anything else. They actually had a good team, just one that refused to play for a guy that relied on insults instead of coaching. The Bengals are the same inconsistent team they usually are with a random winning season here and there. The record is a little better as a whole than 10 years ago but no one considers them world beaters. If the Bengals are what we are aspiring to be, then why care who our coach is?

The situations of all three were completely different than what the Redskins had three years ago.

The biggest problem is that the Redskins have been run by a fan. One that calls for heads to roll after a year or two, and that has been one of the problems of this team. There has been no continuity or chemistry. Especially given that Snyder will most likely look to go back to the days of Snyderatto if he fires Shanny. Which does not mean winning, in case you missed the last 20 years.

To say we are no closer to being competitive is to call RG3 a scrub. There is no way that statement is even remotely true. I get that a lot want to win something so bad that going back to winning the offseason every year is a goal. Its just a stupid goal. Win today or be fired tomorrow is not going to cut it in the NFL. We have been through 20 years of that and some are desperate to go back. I am personally not that excited about winning the offseason just so fans can claim that we have won something.

Shanny has been here 2 1/2 years. Second year was a lockout so FA was not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. First year Shanny deserves a lot of blame, because he actually thought he could win now. He deserves his fair share for that but it seems we are moving to build through the draft the last two drafts and I dont want that to stop. A coaching change now just means a brand new O-line being put in place (since the ZBS isnt exactly common) as well as massive changes to everything else. How long will that rebuild take? According to some here, it should only take 3 games. I call bs to that assertion. Does he deserve 10 years? No, and I never said he should get it. But this carousel at coaching and philosophies will never work.

As for Parity, the last 10 or so years, the same parity has existed in MLB as has in the NFL. 3 teams won it all twice with a few breakthroughs from a couple of other teams.

If the goal is to ruin RG3, then by all means, keep screaming for a new coach every year.

All four teams I mentioned would beat the snot out of Mike's football team. I win

I keed I keed. Not about all four teams beating Mike's though, that shit is real. We were in a lot of games last year, and the year before. We were a below average team. (BTW the intellectual acrobatics on display about all teams playing down to us story is impressive) This year we're in most of our games. We're (still) a below average team, and it's for many of the same reasons as in years one and two e.g. bad defense, lousy special teams, poor discipline, inconsistency, questionable play-calling/play-design, and FA busts.

Nobody that I know discussed canning Mike right after last year, and obviously not after his first year. I don't know where you heard that...but neither do you probably lol.

It's year three. Some of us don't see any overall progress. We traded in a good defense/average offense (pre-Shanahan) for a shit defense/great offense that struggles in a lot of situations, usually the kind that win football games. And that's with ROY at QB.

Sometimes there is a fine line between continuity and complacency, but this isn't one of those times. Mike does not know how to win anymore as an HC. Some believe it's because he could only really win with Elway. Some believe it also had something to do with playing in a week division, and against fewer elite teams in that era. Still others believe it's because he's not actually winning anymore. That last one is a real stretch if you ask me

I think SmootSmack is right that the real continuity is with Bruce Allen. Well, SS hasn't said it that way yet but it's what he thinks.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by The Goat

But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

I think you have selective or fuzzy memory.


Jim Schwartz -Lions:

1st year - 2-14 (drafted stafford with #1)
2nd year- 6-10 (drafted Suh with #2)
3rd year- 10-6
4th year - 3-4

This your idea of a turnaround? Mike hasn't ever been in the #1 or #2 slot drafting, nor has he had one of the best players in the NFL in Calvin Johnson, who Schwartz had. Mike's first 2 years were a lot better than Jim Schwartz who you mysteriously are crediting with a "turn around". Are you blind?



Jim Harbaugh - 49ers

1st year -13-3
2nd year 6-2

Lets look at the talent Jim inherited.

NaVorro Bowman
Patrick Willis (1st rounder)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley (1st rounder)
Anthony Davis (1st rounder)
Andy Lee
Vernon Davis (1st rounder)
Justin Smith
Michael Crabtree (1st rounder)

Dude, Jim had a all-pro type of talent he inherited. He didn't turn shit around. Mike Singletary simply couldn't coach or at least get his players to respond. Dude had a solid OL to boot, and a pro-bowl running back to go along with a incredible defense. If Mike inherited this type of talent and our record was anything like it is now, I would be right along with you hating.


Marvin Lewis- Bengals

Are you ****ing shitting me man? Marvin Lewis is sporting a .480 win percentage in Cincinnati since 2003

1st year - 8-8
2nd year 8-8
3rd year - 11-5 (lost wild card game)
4th year -8-8
5th year - 7-9
6th year - 4-11
7th year - 10-6 (lost wild card game)
8th year- 4-12
9th year- 9-7 (lost wild card game)
10th year- 3-4

Are you kidding me? Where is the "turn around"? They've been the playoffs only 3 times in that span and lost the wild card game each time? Is this the turn around you dream of?


Joe Gibbs 2.0 - Redskins

1st year - 6-10 (they were 9-7 year before)
2nd year 10-6 (lost divisional playoff game)
3rd year- 5-11
4th year - 9-7 (lost wild card game)

NOT a turn around. I'm not even going to bother researching all the stupid ass trades Gibbs/Cerrato did during this time all to "WIN NOW".....and they really couldn't even do that. All those draft picks and contracts they handed out for vets and FA and the best they could manage was a 10-6? Really?



C'mon man!!!

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I think you have selective or fuzzy memory.


Jim Schwartz -Lions:

1st year - 2-14 (drafted stafford with #1)
2nd year- 6-10 (drafted Suh with #2)
3rd year- 10-6
4th year - 3-4

This your idea of a turnaround? Mike hasn't ever been in the #1 or #2 slot drafting, nor has he had one of the best players in the NFL in Calvin Johnson, who Schwartz had. Mike's first 2 years were a lot better than Jim Schwartz who you mysteriously are crediting with a "turn around". Are you blind?



Jim Harbaugh - 49ers

1st year -13-3
2nd year 6-2

Lets look at the talent Jim inherited.

NaVorro Bowman
Patrick Willis (1st rounder)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley (1st rounder)
Anthony Davis (1st rounder)
Andy Lee
Vernon Davis (1st rounder)
Justin Smith
Michael Crabtree (1st rounder)

Dude, Jim had a all-pro type of talent he inherited. He didn't turn shit around. Mike Singletary simply couldn't coach or at least get his players to respond. Dude had a solid OL to boot, and a pro-bowl running back to go along with a incredible defense. If Mike inherited this type of talent and our record was anything like it is now, I would be right along with you hating.


Marvin Lewis- Bengals

Are you ****ing shitting me man? Marvin Lewis is sporting a .480 win percentage in Cincinnati since 2003

1st year - 8-8
2nd year 8-8
3rd year - 11-5 (lost wild card game)
4th year -8-8
5th year - 7-9
6th year - 4-11
7th year - 10-6 (lost wild card game)
8th year- 4-12
9th year- 9-7 (lost wild card game)
10th year- 3-4

Are you kidding me? Where is the "turn around"? They've been the playoffs only 3 times in that span and lost the wild card game each time? Is this the turn around you dream of?


Joe Gibbs 2.0 - Redskins

1st year - 6-10 (they were 9-7 year before)
2nd year 10-6 (lost divisional playoff game)
3rd year- 5-11
4th year - 9-7 (lost wild card game)

NOT a turn around. I'm not even going to bother researching all the stupid ass trades Gibbs/Cerrato did during this time all to "WIN NOW".....and they really couldn't even do that. All those draft picks and contracts they handed out for vets and FA and the best they could manage was a 10-6? Really?



C'mon man!!!

Unequivocally, Shanahan still has the worst "turnaround" record compared to any of these examples.