Should Mike Shanahan be fired?

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Indeed. Three years is enough time to turn things around where it matters - winning - if you have a real plan and know what your doing. Three years is a lifetime in the NFL. The league is structured to promote parity, through the draft, salary cap, FA etc. A five year contract for a coach is still fine, but if he can't improve the record in year three it's just wishful thinking year 4 or 5 will be better.

The other thing is, this regime has made as many really bad FA moves as the last. McNabb, Brown, a litany of defensive players that aren't making an impact. I like the way GTripp said it, Gibbs turned it around by year 2 with smart FA moves and solid coaching. Mike's had three years and we're NO CLOSER TO BEING A COMPETITIVE TEAM than when he took over, period.

I was struck by the matter of fact manner you use. I must ask, to make your statement carry any weight or validity....what exactly is your experience on subject matters such as this? What is your level of expertise in NFL matter?

If you

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Hog1

I was struck by the matter of fact manner you use. I must ask, to make your statement carry any weight or validity....what exactly is your experience on subject matters such as this? What is your level of expertise in NFL matter?

If you

Too many examples to list of coaches that turn a broken franchise around and achieve a winning record and/or even the playoffs. But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

So I guess observation is my answer. Three years is a long time in any sport, but the way NFL promotes parity through it's structure (think about how baseball doesn't have a salary cap) I think you see it here the most.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by The Goat

Too many examples to list of coaches that turn a broken franchise around and achieve a winning record and/or even the playoffs. But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

So I guess observation is my answer. Three years is a long time in any sport, but the way NFL promotes parity through it's structure (think about how baseball doesn't have a salary cap) I think you see it here the most.

Some of these teams that were turned around arent exactly model franchises. Lions had a QB that finally stop being injured. They had one good year and are struggling again. Niners was more about Singletary than anything else. They actually had a good team, just one that refused to play for a guy that relied on insults instead of coaching. The Bengals are the same inconsistent team they usually are with a random winning season here and there. The record is a little better as a whole than 10 years ago but no one considers them world beaters. If the Bengals are what we are aspiring to be, then why care who our coach is?

The situations of all three were completely different than what the Redskins had three years ago.

The biggest problem is that the Redskins have been run by a fan. One that calls for heads to roll after a year or two, and that has been one of the problems of this team. There has been no continuity or chemistry. Especially given that Snyder will most likely look to go back to the days of Snyderatto if he fires Shanny. Which does not mean winning, in case you missed the last 20 years.

To say we are no closer to being competitive is to call RG3 a scrub. There is no way that statement is even remotely true. I get that a lot want to win something so bad that going back to winning the offseason every year is a goal. Its just a stupid goal. Win today or be fired tomorrow is not going to cut it in the NFL. We have been through 20 years of that and some are desperate to go back. I am personally not that excited about winning the offseason just so fans can claim that we have won something.

Shanny has been here 2 1/2 years. Second year was a lockout so FA was not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. First year Shanny deserves a lot of blame, because he actually thought he could win now. He deserves his fair share for that but it seems we are moving to build through the draft the last two drafts and I dont want that to stop. A coaching change now just means a brand new O-line being put in place (since the ZBS isnt exactly common) as well as massive changes to everything else. How long will that rebuild take? According to some here, it should only take 3 games. I call bs to that assertion. Does he deserve 10 years? No, and I never said he should get it. But this carousel at coaching and philosophies will never work.

As for Parity, the last 10 or so years, the same parity has existed in MLB as has in the NFL. 3 teams won it all twice with a few breakthroughs from a couple of other teams.

If the goal is to ruin RG3, then by all means, keep screaming for a new coach every year.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Skinzman

Some of these teams that were turned around arent exactly model franchises. Lions had a QB that finally stop being injured. They had one good year and are struggling again. Niners was more about Singletary than anything else. They actually had a good team, just one that refused to play for a guy that relied on insults instead of coaching. The Bengals are the same inconsistent team they usually are with a random winning season here and there. The record is a little better as a whole than 10 years ago but no one considers them world beaters. If the Bengals are what we are aspiring to be, then why care who our coach is?

The situations of all three were completely different than what the Redskins had three years ago.

The biggest problem is that the Redskins have been run by a fan. One that calls for heads to roll after a year or two, and that has been one of the problems of this team. There has been no continuity or chemistry. Especially given that Snyder will most likely look to go back to the days of Snyderatto if he fires Shanny. Which does not mean winning, in case you missed the last 20 years.

To say we are no closer to being competitive is to call RG3 a scrub. There is no way that statement is even remotely true. I get that a lot want to win something so bad that going back to winning the offseason every year is a goal. Its just a stupid goal. Win today or be fired tomorrow is not going to cut it in the NFL. We have been through 20 years of that and some are desperate to go back. I am personally not that excited about winning the offseason just so fans can claim that we have won something.

Shanny has been here 2 1/2 years. Second year was a lockout so FA was not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. First year Shanny deserves a lot of blame, because he actually thought he could win now. He deserves his fair share for that but it seems we are moving to build through the draft the last two drafts and I dont want that to stop. A coaching change now just means a brand new O-line being put in place (since the ZBS isnt exactly common) as well as massive changes to everything else. How long will that rebuild take? According to some here, it should only take 3 games. I call bs to that assertion. Does he deserve 10 years? No, and I never said he should get it. But this carousel at coaching and philosophies will never work.

As for Parity, the last 10 or so years, the same parity has existed in MLB as has in the NFL. 3 teams won it all twice with a few breakthroughs from a couple of other teams.

If the goal is to ruin RG3, then by all means, keep screaming for a new coach every year.

All four teams I mentioned would beat the snot out of Mike's football team. I win

I keed I keed. Not about all four teams beating Mike's though, that shit is real. We were in a lot of games last year, and the year before. We were a below average team. (BTW the intellectual acrobatics on display about all teams playing down to us story is impressive) This year we're in most of our games. We're (still) a below average team, and it's for many of the same reasons as in years one and two e.g. bad defense, lousy special teams, poor discipline, inconsistency, questionable play-calling/play-design, and FA busts.

Nobody that I know discussed canning Mike right after last year, and obviously not after his first year. I don't know where you heard that...but neither do you probably lol.

It's year three. Some of us don't see any overall progress. We traded in a good defense/average offense (pre-Shanahan) for a shit defense/great offense that struggles in a lot of situations, usually the kind that win football games. And that's with ROY at QB.

Sometimes there is a fine line between continuity and complacency, but this isn't one of those times. Mike does not know how to win anymore as an HC. Some believe it's because he could only really win with Elway. Some believe it also had something to do with playing in a week division, and against fewer elite teams in that era. Still others believe it's because he's not actually winning anymore. That last one is a real stretch if you ask me

I think SmootSmack is right that the real continuity is with Bruce Allen. Well, SS hasn't said it that way yet but it's what he thinks.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by The Goat

All four teams I mentioned would beat the snot out of Mike's football team. I win

I keed I keed. Not about all four teams beating Mike's though, that shit is real. We were in a lot of games last year, and the year before. We were a below average team. (BTW the intellectual acrobatics on display about all teams playing down to us story is impressive) This year we're in most of our games. We're (still) a below average team, and it's for many of the same reasons as in years one and two e.g. bad defense, lousy special teams, poor discipline, inconsistency, questionable play-calling/play-design, and FA busts.

Nobody that I know discussed canning Mike right after last year, and obviously not after his first year. I don't know where you heard that...but neither do you probably lol.

It's year three. Some of us don't see any overall progress. We traded in a good defense/average offense (pre-Shanahan) for a shit defense/great offense that struggles in a lot of situations, usually the kind that win football games. And that's with ROY at QB.

Sometimes there is a fine line between continuity and complacency, but this isn't one of those times. Mike does not know how to win anymore as an HC. Some believe it's because he could only really win with Elway. Some believe it also had something to do with playing in a week division, and against fewer elite teams in that era. Still others believe it's because he's not actually winning anymore. That last one is a real stretch if you ask me

I think SmootSmack is right that the real continuity is with Bruce Allen. Well, SS hasn't said it that way yet but it's what he thinks.

The case for Firing Mike Shanahan - hailRedskins.com Fan Board

Not this forum board, but dont say I dont know where I heard it. I have heard it, and im sure you have as well . The thread Im linking is not even after his first year, but during. Something tells me that if I was willing to spend the time to go back through this specific forum board, that I would find similar sentiments. Some people have been calling for his head since his first season. Granted some people also called the trade for RG3 to be one of the worst trades in the history of the entire sport.

A lot of people screamed "Young QB... Young QB..." his first two years. He waited, and we arent stuck with Gabbert. Let me repeat that... "WE ARENT STUCK WITH GABBERT". Most of the people calling for Shannys head would have taken Gabbert and called it a great day that the Skins finally have their QB of the future. And the losing would have continued for another decade regardless of who our coach is.

Did he screw up with the McNabb trade? Absolutely... But most people would not of had the guts to wait that extra year when an entire fan base was screaming for a young QB, and then had the guts to drop what was needed to bring RG3 here. Shanny does deserve credit for that, and if RG3 continues to develop into what I think he can be, then he deserves at least one more year beyond this year to see if he can make it work. We dont need to do to RG3 what we did to JC and change his offense every single year, that is a huge mistake.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by The Goat

But top of my mind: Lions, Niners, Bengals, and of course Redskins in Gibbs II.

I think you have selective or fuzzy memory.


Jim Schwartz -Lions:

1st year - 2-14 (drafted stafford with #1)
2nd year- 6-10 (drafted Suh with #2)
3rd year- 10-6
4th year - 3-4

This your idea of a turnaround? Mike hasn't ever been in the #1 or #2 slot drafting, nor has he had one of the best players in the NFL in Calvin Johnson, who Schwartz had. Mike's first 2 years were a lot better than Jim Schwartz who you mysteriously are crediting with a "turn around". Are you blind?



Jim Harbaugh - 49ers

1st year -13-3
2nd year 6-2

Lets look at the talent Jim inherited.

NaVorro Bowman
Patrick Willis (1st rounder)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley (1st rounder)
Anthony Davis (1st rounder)
Andy Lee
Vernon Davis (1st rounder)
Justin Smith
Michael Crabtree (1st rounder)

Dude, Jim had a all-pro type of talent he inherited. He didn't turn shit around. Mike Singletary simply couldn't coach or at least get his players to respond. Dude had a solid OL to boot, and a pro-bowl running back to go along with a incredible defense. If Mike inherited this type of talent and our record was anything like it is now, I would be right along with you hating.


Marvin Lewis- Bengals

Are you ****ing shitting me man? Marvin Lewis is sporting a .480 win percentage in Cincinnati since 2003

1st year - 8-8
2nd year 8-8
3rd year - 11-5 (lost wild card game)
4th year -8-8
5th year - 7-9
6th year - 4-11
7th year - 10-6 (lost wild card game)
8th year- 4-12
9th year- 9-7 (lost wild card game)
10th year- 3-4

Are you kidding me? Where is the "turn around"? They've been the playoffs only 3 times in that span and lost the wild card game each time? Is this the turn around you dream of?


Joe Gibbs 2.0 - Redskins

1st year - 6-10 (they were 9-7 year before)
2nd year 10-6 (lost divisional playoff game)
3rd year- 5-11
4th year - 9-7 (lost wild card game)

NOT a turn around. I'm not even going to bother researching all the stupid ass trades Gibbs/Cerrato did during this time all to "WIN NOW".....and they really couldn't even do that. All those draft picks and contracts they handed out for vets and FA and the best they could manage was a 10-6? Really?



C'mon man!!!

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

I think you have selective or fuzzy memory.


Jim Schwartz -Lions:

1st year - 2-14 (drafted stafford with #1)
2nd year- 6-10 (drafted Suh with #2)
3rd year- 10-6
4th year - 3-4

This your idea of a turnaround? Mike hasn't ever been in the #1 or #2 slot drafting, nor has he had one of the best players in the NFL in Calvin Johnson, who Schwartz had. Mike's first 2 years were a lot better than Jim Schwartz who you mysteriously are crediting with a "turn around". Are you blind?



Jim Harbaugh - 49ers

1st year -13-3
2nd year 6-2

Lets look at the talent Jim inherited.

NaVorro Bowman
Patrick Willis (1st rounder)
Frank Gore
Joe Staley (1st rounder)
Anthony Davis (1st rounder)
Andy Lee
Vernon Davis (1st rounder)
Justin Smith
Michael Crabtree (1st rounder)

Dude, Jim had a all-pro type of talent he inherited. He didn't turn shit around. Mike Singletary simply couldn't coach or at least get his players to respond. Dude had a solid OL to boot, and a pro-bowl running back to go along with a incredible defense. If Mike inherited this type of talent and our record was anything like it is now, I would be right along with you hating.


Marvin Lewis- Bengals

Are you ****ing shitting me man? Marvin Lewis is sporting a .480 win percentage in Cincinnati since 2003

1st year - 8-8
2nd year 8-8
3rd year - 11-5 (lost wild card game)
4th year -8-8
5th year - 7-9
6th year - 4-11
7th year - 10-6 (lost wild card game)
8th year- 4-12
9th year- 9-7 (lost wild card game)
10th year- 3-4

Are you kidding me? Where is the "turn around"? They've been the playoffs only 3 times in that span and lost the wild card game each time? Is this the turn around you dream of?


Joe Gibbs 2.0 - Redskins

1st year - 6-10 (they were 9-7 year before)
2nd year 10-6 (lost divisional playoff game)
3rd year- 5-11
4th year - 9-7 (lost wild card game)

NOT a turn around. I'm not even going to bother researching all the stupid ass trades Gibbs/Cerrato did during this time all to "WIN NOW".....and they really couldn't even do that. All those draft picks and contracts they handed out for vets and FA and the best they could manage was a 10-6? Really?



C'mon man!!!

Unequivocally, Shanahan still has the worst "turnaround" record compared to any of these examples.