Eagles cracks showing

[Daseal]

the only offensive weapon is McNabb who you can't say they "developed", he is just straight up good.

I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate. The Eagles offense relies so much on the passing game and big plays (they passed 12% more on first down than the 2nd ranked team) that without TO and Pinkston (as bad as he is) I don't think they can continue.

Here's what I wonder about the Eagles front office. TO isn't the first player to make accusations to say that the front office says don't worry about it, after the season we'll give you x, y, and z. Then come back and don't fulfill their promises. I wouldn't be suprised if they said we'll pay you but let's just get this deal done so you can get into camp. Which is why he completely ignored the NFL PA, etc. I think we can all admit that coming out of SF he DIDN'T get fair market value for a WR of his ability. Now, this fiasco with the Eagles has certainly dropped what he's worth, but I question if the Eagles FO doesn't like to make verbal deals then say NU UH.

That said, I'm not defending TOs actions at all, the way he's gone about this has been abominable. I just think the Eagles FO is more to blame than we're being lead to believe.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate.

Actually I agree 100% with you and probably tend to think he is one of the more overrated guys in the league. I simply made that statment rather than listen to everyone pipe in about McNabb. I realize many people think he is great so I was just going along really.
In my opinion McNabb is a top 10 QB but only because he makes better than average decisions and can make some plays with his feet. Without a stud WR I can list 8 or 9 QBs straight up that I'd take before him. I know it is not a popular position but good ole stupid Limbaugh was right when he said McNabb was overrated and probably got a little of his rub from being black. The guy is a quality athlete and a role model for other athletes in his classy demeanor and determination but he is not a great QB.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate. The Eagles offense relies so much on the passing game and big plays (they passed 12% more on first down than the 2nd ranked team) that without TO and Pinkston (as bad as he is) I don't think they can continue.

Here's what I wonder about the Eagles front office. TO isn't the first player to make accusations to say that the front office says don't worry about it, after the season we'll give you x, y, and z. Then come back and don't fulfill their promises. I wouldn't be suprised if they said we'll pay you but let's just get this deal done so you can get into camp. Which is why he completely ignored the NFL PA, etc. I think we can all admit that coming out of SF he DIDN'T get fair market value for a WR of his ability. Now, this fiasco with the Eagles has certainly dropped what he's worth, but I question if the Eagles FO doesn't like to make verbal deals then say NU UH.

That said, I'm not defending TOs actions at all, the way he's gone about this has been abominable. I just think the Eagles FO is more to blame than we're being lead to believe.

I'd say that TO's original contract that the Eagles gave him was right on market value. Sure, he and Randy Moss are definitely the two most talented receivers in the game. But TO's contract only pays him like he's the 10th best receiver in the game. I say that's fair because of what a poor teammate he is. He didn't just all of a sudden become a pain in the ass this year in Philly, he was horrible to Jeff Garcia. Called him gay in the newspapers, complained that he never threw him the ball, yelled at him on the sidelines and in the huddle. If you're a team looking to sign TO, you definitely see the huge talent, but you have to discount it because he's such a pain in the ass. I wouldn't pay him a top 10 WR's salary, and I doubt many other teams would at this point.

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'd say that TO's original contract that the Eagles gave him was right on market value. Sure, he and Randy Moss are definitely the two most talented receivers in the game. But TO's contract only pays him like he's the 10th best receiver in the game. I say that's fair because of what a poor teammate he is. He didn't just all of a sudden become a pain in the ass this year in Philly, he was horrible to Jeff Garcia. Called him gay in the newspapers, complained that he never threw him the ball, yelled at him on the sidelines and in the huddle. If you're a team looking to sign TO, you definitely see the huge talent, but you have to discount it because he's such a pain in the ass. I wouldn't pay him a top 10 WR's salary, and I doubt many other teams would at this point.

Please don't take this personally Schneed10, but that's a bullshit stat. This year - and this year only - Owens's base salary is ranked outside of the top ten in total compensation. However, with the signing bonus he received last year, his two-year compensation ranks him below Moss, Harrison, and (I think because of his new contract with the Jets) Coles. That's elite company. If he had kept his mouth shut, without any changes to his contract, he would receive an additional $7.5 million in bonus on April 1st.

The "10th best receiver" line is Rosenhaus rhetoric designed to illicit sympathy for his noble client. Take it with a grain of salt. Hell, take it with a whole salt lick.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

Please don't take this personally Schneed10, but that's a bullshit stat. This year - and this year only - Owens's base salary is ranked outside of the top ten in total compensation. However, with the signing bonus he received last year, his two-year compensation ranks him below Moss, Harrison, and (I think because of his new contract with the Jets) Coles. That's elite company. If he had kept his mouth shut, without any changes to his contract, he would receive an additional $7.5 million in bonus on April 1st.

The "10th best receiver" line is Rosenhaus rhetoric designed to illicit sympathy for his noble client. Take it with a grain of salt. Hell, take it with a whole salt lick.

No offense taken. But I think Rosenhaus is more correct on the relative value of the contract than anyone else. If you're going to look at compensation for the last two seasons only, then you're eliminating anyone who didn't sign a contract within the last two seasons. Owens, Harrison and Coles all signed within the last two seasons. Saying they rank highly in two-year compensation doesn't say much, since the signing bonus comprises well more than half of the first two years of compensation in almost all NFL contracts.

Total contract value is a pretty worthless measure since so many contracts are backloaded such that the final few years are never intended to be honored. The best measuring stick is the size of the guaranteed money (usually equal to the signing bonus). Owens got $10 million from the Eagles. We gave Coles $13 million two years ago. Harrison signed with guarantees of $23 million (bonuses payable in several installments). In 2001, the Vikings signed Randy Moss to an extension giving him an $18 million signing bonus. He's still under that contract with the Raiders.

Owens is definitely underpaid when you consider his talent alone. I was just saying that when you consider the whole package, including his talent and how bad a teammate he is, the contract value seems right on to me.

[CrazyCanuck]

Here's what bugs me. TO was under contract last year with SF. No one would trade for him with that bulky deal so he was stuck. Not only did the NFL let him out of his contract but they let him play games with Baltimore and Philly until he got a deal he was happy with on a team he was happy with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Then one year later he's talking like he got screwed and wants more money???

Also, the "I'm not being paid market value" argument is a crock. Was he getting market value last year when he signed? Has so much changed in one year? Also what numbers do you use when making your argument (total contract, signing bonus, total bonus, etc.)?

And another thing, if you are the best WR in football and sign a 7-year deal, it is practically GUARANTEED that other WRs will be making more money than you by the time the 7-year deal expires. It's called INFLATION. If you want to be the highest paid WR at all times then put that in the contract.

The only time the "market value" argument would ever hold weight for me is with a guy like Sean Taylor. A young rookie who signs a relatively cheap and long deal and then quickly becomes one of the premier players in the league at his position. Even then his case is weak but at least there is a case. Note I am not referring to the real Sean Taylor here (who doesn't deserve a dime more at this point if you ask me), but a hypothetical guy like Sean Taylor.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck

Here's what bugs me. TO was under contract last year with SF. No one would trade for him with that bulky deal so he was stuck. Not only did the NFL let him out of his contract but they let him play games with Baltimore and Philly until he got a deal he was happy with on a team he was happy with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Didn't SF encur a huge cap hit when they let him go? I thought that was part of the reason they had to get rid of so many players during their salary cap binge?

Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck

Also, the "I'm not being paid market value" argument is a crock. Was he getting market value last year when he signed? Has so much changed in one year? Also what numbers do you use when making your argument (total contract, signing bonus, total bonus, etc.)?

I don't think he got market value if you just look at talent. He got his deal from the Eagles in 2004, right around the same time that Marvin Harrison got $23 million in guarantees from the Colts, and 3 years after Randy Moss got $18 million in guarantees 2001 from the Vikings. Certainly Moss, Owens, and Harrison are comparable to one another in terms of talent.

Originally Posted by CrazyCanuck

And another thing, if you are the best WR in football and sign a 7-year deal, it is practically GUARANTEED that other WRs will be making more money than you by the time the 7-year deal expires. It's called INFLATION.

I agree about inflation, TO shouldn't compare himself to anyone who signed after him for that very reason. But look at Randy Moss who signed 3 years before him, Harrison who signed at the same time, and L Coles who signed 1 year before him. If anything, Owens could have argued for more money based on inflation from their contracts.

I just mean to clarify myself here, that's all. On talent alone, Rosenhaus is absolutely right. TO is underpaid compared to the other elite WRs in the league. But talent isn't the whole picture. So overall, I think he's paid fairly and doesn't deserve any more money from the Eagles at all. They are getting what they paid for, an immensely talented but a completely selfish and disruptive player. I have no sympathy for the Eagles or TO.

And when the Eagles and TO eventually part ways, I don't think there's a way in hell TO will ever get paid like Marvin Harrison. Teams just don't want his attitude.

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

No offense taken. But I think Rosenhaus is more correct on the relative value of the contract than anyone else. If you're going to look at compensation for the last two seasons only, then you're eliminating anyone who didn't sign a contract within the last two seasons. Owens, Harrison and Coles all signed within the last two seasons. Saying they rank highly in two-year compensation doesn't say much, since the signing bonus comprises well more than half of the first two years of compensation in almost all NFL contracts.

Total contract value is a pretty worthless measure since so many contracts are backloaded such that the final few years are never intended to be honored. The best measuring stick is the size of the guaranteed money (usually equal to the signing bonus). Owens got $10 million from the Eagles. We gave Coles $13 million two years ago. Harrison signed with guarantees of $23 million (bonuses payable in several installments). In 2001, the Vikings signed Randy Moss to an extension giving him an $18 million signing bonus. He's still under that contract with the Raiders.

Owens is definitely underpaid when you consider his talent alone. I was just saying that when you consider the whole package, including his talent and how bad a teammate he is, the contract value seems right on to me.

Part of Owens's contract is deferred bonuses as well - like the $7.5 million he would be due in April.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

Part of Owens's contract is deferred bonuses as well - like the $7.5 million he would be due in April.

That 7.5 million is not guaranteed. It's a roster bonus. If the Eagles decide they still want him next year (which I highly doubt at this point) they would probably rework the deal and turn that $7.5 million into a signing bonus. But Owens can see the writing on the wall, he now realizes he's not going to see that $7.5 million because the Eagles will let him walk. So he's regretting signing that contract.

Of course, I have no sympathy for him. I am in no way saying he signed a "bad" deal. I think he's paid fairly. He may put up crazy numbers on the field, but his antics are detrimental to the team.

But just in terms of guaranteed money, the 2001 Randy Moss deal and the 2004 Marvin Harrison deal dwarf the Owens deal in comparison. Heck, Coles got more guarantees from us in 2003 than Owens did. Owens is certainly comparable in terms of talent with Moss and Harrison. On that point I have no argument with Rosenhaus. But what Rosenhaus doesn't consider is what a pain in the ass Owens is. That's where he's wrong. The fact that Owens is a pain in the ass is exactly why he shouldn't get guarantees anywhere close to the size of Marvin Harrison's.

Teams definitely wouldn't shy away from Owens thinking he won't produce. They'd shy away because he's a selfish player.