KC Chiefs' Player Commits Murder-Suicide

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I hadn't heard they had a tribute to him. I'd have to see what "tribute" meant. But I can definitely see how it could be disrespectful. My point is that it isn't just a binary decision. You are what you've done. ALL of what you've done.

BTW...in my opinion equating murdering in the heat of the moment to executing a premeditated terrorist attack that kills dozens of innocent bystanders is a little off. Not that either is "better" but they're not the same thing at all. One takes actual pure evil...the other takes...well whatever it takes in whatever the given circumstance is.

I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.

Now we're into philosophical differences. We're just going to disagree on this.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment. Think about someone very close to you. Can you envision a situation where you shot him/her 9 times? Probably not. To get to the point where youre take the life of another human being, you have to develop and cultivate a hatred for them. You probably fantasize about it. You dont think that you'll ever do it, but you hate that person and wish they were dead. You let those feelings build up in you for a long time, simmering. Then, one day when youre fighting, you actually think, "you know what, i'm going to do it. I hate this person and i'm going to get rid of them." And then you do it. Thats pure evil. Belcher killed the mother of his child in cold blood. Then, he killed himself because he was too much of a coward to face the consequences of his actions.

If he hadnt killed himself, its possible, in time, he could have repented (and i'm not speaking in a religious sense) and attoned for what he had done. He could have tried to make ammends to the best of his ability. He could have tried to do some good to society. In that situation, you could look at him as a 70 year old man and say, "you were a murderer, but thats not ALL you are. You've changed, and you've done good to your fellow man." But Belcher denied himself that chance. His last act, before killing himself, was to take the life of another human being. Nothing he did prior to that matters, because that last act was so heinous and evil that it overshadows everything else.

So you are saying that someone who murders a loved one and kills themselves is completely sane and rational?

I am not trying to justify what Belcher did or disregard the victim that he killed. But don't you think something really f*cked up must have happened in his mind to do this? Serial killers, terrorists, criminals, are typically pretty f*cked in their mind, but they plan on killing people and in some case relish on the act and the notoriety that comes from their heinous acts.

Some guy going insane, killing his significant other, killing himself, and orphaning his child, in my opinion, is not in that same level.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

So you are saying that someone who murders a loved one and kills themselves is completely sane and rational?

I am not trying to justify what Belcher did or disregard the victim that he killed. But don't you think something really f*cked up must have happened in his mind to do this? Serial killers, terrorists, criminals, are typically pretty f*cked in their mind, but they plan on killing people and in some case relish on the act and the notoriety that comes from their heinous acts.

Some guy going insane, killing his significant other, killing himself, and orphaning his child, in my opinion, is not in that same level.

There are people who are born with legitimate mental defects, but the vast majority of us chose what type of persons we will be. We are not all dealt the same deck of cards (family, money, education, opportunity), but we all chose how we response to the hands were dealt. We all have a conscience and an innate sense of right and wrong.

There is absolutely no evidence that Belcher was insane. Although temporary insanity is used as a defense in courts of law, i think its BS, for the reasons i've outlined already.

The problem with our society, one of them anyways, is that we foster a culture of unaccountability. We look for excuses to prevent holding ourselves and others accountable for our/their actions:

"I'm getting Divorced. My wife and i just grew apart. We dont love eachother anymore. Its no ones fault." Bull crap. One or both of you got lazy and stopped WORKING on your marriage. Because of your selfishness, your kids will grow up in a broken home.

"I'm behind on my mortgage payments and the evil bank is foreclosing. its not fair. They never should have given me my loan." Bull crap. The bank paid for your home and you signed a contract promising to pay the bank back. You didnt keep your promise, so they have to take your house and try to re-sell it so they don't just lose all the money they spent buying your house. Yeah, you might have lost your job or gone through hard times, but thats not the banks fault.

A man shots the mother of his child 9 times, and everyone is trying to make excuses for him. "he must not have been in his right mind... he must have been insane... he was in a rage... it was in the heat of the moment. they were arguing." BULL CRAP. Its been reported he was having issues with his girlfriend for months. They'd been fighting. This wasnt just some spur of the moment accident. It was MONTHS of anger and animosity building. By chosing to allow those feelings to build, continuing to fight and argue, Belcher cultivated a mindset that was capeable of murder. when things reached a boling point, he acted on it.

Is there a difference between someone like Belcher and a serial killer who takes pleasure in murdering people? Is therre a difference between Belcher and terrorist who blows up a building because his religous/political beleifs make him think its the right thing to do? Sure. But theyre all evil and they all made conscious decisions to cultivate and act on wrong thoughts.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I couldnt disagree more with your second point. Both require pre-meditation. You dont shoot someone 9 times randomly in the heat of the moment.

Surprisingly uninformed statement. So a raging person <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> once and immediately calms down?

<point_laugh>

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Surprisingly uninformed statement. So a raging person <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> once and immediately calms down?

<point_laugh>

Surprisingly lack of ability to read. At no point did i comment on the speed at which a person calms down after stabbing/shooting/bludgeoning someone.

My point was that even a murder "in the heat of the moment" requires a level of pre-meditation. Even if a person doesnt specifically plan the act well in advance, he cultivates evil desires/feelings in his heart. Therefore, when he does get in a rage, he's more likely to ACT on it.

[RedskinRat]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Surprisingly lack of ability to read. At no point did i comment on the speed at which a person calms down after stabbing/shooting/bludgeoning someone.

My point was that even a murder "in the heat of the moment" requires a level of pre-meditation. Even if a person doesnt specifically plan the act well in advance, he cultivates evil desires/feelings in his heart. Therefore, when he does get in a rage, he's more likely to ACT on it.

Then you're arguing semantics. Exactly 'how' premeditated was it?

You can quite easily kill someone with no premeditation if you snap. For example: You're having a bad day, you get into a situation that exacerbates it in traffic on the way home, walk in the door and someone says the wrong thing. You then <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> that person, no premeditation need occur. Some people have incredibly poor impulse control centers, the frontal lobe of the brain is the part that does the reasoning and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage.

Much better explanation that 'evil'.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by RedskinRat

Then you're arguing semantics. Exactly 'how' premeditated was it?

You can quite easily kill someone with no premeditation if you snap. For example: You're having a bad day, you get into a situation that exacerbates it in traffic on the way home, walk in the door and someone says the wrong thing. You then <stabs/shoots/bludgeons> that person, no premeditation need occur. Some people have incredibly poor impulse control centers, the frontal lobe of the brain is the part that does the reasoning and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that an aggressive athlete that has had multiple injuries to this part of the brain may be more susceptible to rage.

Much better explanation that 'evil'.

Please provide evidence supporting your statement that Belcher had multiple injuries to his brain that affected the ipulse control center of his brain, making him more susceptible to rage.

Please also explain how being more susceptible to rage makes you less responsible for your own actions. In my opinion, if you, for any reason, are more susciptable to rage, then you are responsible for working harder than most people at controlling it.

As to your first statement regarding having a bad day, you've acutally proved my other point. You might not premediate murdering that particular peson, but by chosing to react to all those situations the way that you do, and let that anger bulid up inside you, youre cultivating a mindset that makes you more likely to act on it. If a person has impulses like that, they are responsible for working extra hard to control them - not using it as an excuse for when they do snap.

People "snap" because society tolerates that behavior and makes excuses for it. If it didnt, i think you would find alot less people would "snap."