Legalize it!

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

I think the question is: Does the government have the right to protect you from yourself?

I say no.

Who pays, when you ( or anyone else) become a problem?

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Who pays, when you ( or anyone else) become a problem?

A problem to myself? I guess that is my problem, and nobody else's.

However, let's assume that I do incur costs on the government for harming myself. So what? I pay taxes. Those taxes should be used for creating an environment in which I am free. Freedom has monetary costs, and that is what our taxes should be used for (at least partially).

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

A problem to myself? I guess that is my problem, and nobody else's.

ab-so-freakin-lutely!

However, let's assume that I do incur costs on the government for harming myself.

How is this even possible? Unless we're talking about jail time, or the judicial system.

So what? I pay taxes. Those taxes should be used for creating an environment in which I am free. Freedom has monetary costs, and that is what our taxes should be used for (at least partially).

I agree.
We as a society need to be taught to be self responsible. I feel like I go through life with no safety net, but there are many people that feel that the government is their safety net. That's not right. Those people will purposely fall into the net because it's the lazy way out.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Who pays, when you ( or anyone else) become a problem?

We are already subsidizing others' actions and habits that we do not directly benefit from. I do not see how marijuana is different. In fact I do not see the subsidization argument being a valid one with respect to marijuana because, as we've talked about, it's ill health effects are little or nill.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Hog,

Would you also say that the Government should ban fast food, mandate exercise, and tax fat people? Because cardio-vascular disease attributable to poor diet and lack of exercise has become the #1 killer in America and the single greatest reason why Americans have such poor health and pay so much for healthcare. That sounds like an awfully socialistic, paternalistic point of view - the people are too dumb to decide for themselves, the government must do it for them.

Or, as long as we are talking about social utility, what about guns? Guns have social utility only insofar as they can be used to protect against others with guns. Should people have the right to possess weapons that can kill, but not have the right to possess marijuana?

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Hog,

Would you also say that the Government should ban fast food, mandate exercise, and tax fat people? Because cardio-vascular disease attributable to poor diet and lack of exercise has become the #1 killer in America and the single greatest reason why Americans have such poor health and pay so much for healthcare. That sounds like an awfully socialistic, paternalistic point of view - the people are too dumb to decide for themselves, the government must do it for them.

Or, as long as we are talking about social utility, what about guns? Guns have social utility only insofar as they can be used to protect against others with guns. Should people have the right to possess weapons that can kill, but not have the right to possess marijuana?

The points you bring up are valid, are not answered simply, or absolutely. In truth, I do not know the answers. I can say for me, the legalization of Smoke is not that big of a deal. The legalization of other more powerful drugs may have a more profound effect. I simply don't believe that, that society is one we want to live in. Yes, I believe that the species of man has to be regulated by ( at least some) law, or chaos ensues. I view the legalization of virtually all mind benders as a serious step in the wrong direction.

And yes, I would love to see America ruled by something other than money! Until then, fast food stays.
Let's face it, Strychnine is heavily regulated. Why, no money in it. Nobody cares. Same result as fast food?? just slower.

Maybe it's like helmet laws?? To stupid to wear a helmet?? No problem, it's my head, right? Wrong. Your head, my health care dollars?

I would love to weigh in on the gun issue, but I will save that for another time, as I don't believe it germane to this arena.

[RobH4413]

Originally Posted by Hog1

I would love to weigh in on the gun issue, but I will save that for another time, as I don't believe it germane to this arena.

I find it ironic that so many conservatives are so adamant for some civil liberties (right to bear arms), saying things like "We must protect our rights as Americans!".

But yet sit silent and say nothing about the loss of our "rights" implied in the patriot act.

Not trying to get in a debate there, but it doesn't make sense to me.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I find it ironic that so many conservatives are so adamant for some civil liberties (right to bear arms), saying things like "We must protect our rights as Americans!".

But yet sit silent and say nothing about the loss of our "rights" implied in the patriot act.

Not trying to get in a debate there, but it doesn't make sense to me.

What, specifically is pissing you off?

[RobH4413]

Why some are so adamant to protect civil liberties that cost the lives of many many innocent lives (guns in the wrong hands), yet are willing to sacrifice rights for the name of terrorism.

Why not just make guns illegal. Seems to me like al ot of the same reasoning.

Sorry for going off-topic.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by RobH4413

I find it ironic that so many conservatives are so adamant for some civil liberties (right to bear arms), saying things like "We must protect our rights as Americans!".

But yet sit silent and say nothing about the loss of our "rights" implied in the patriot act.

Not trying to get in a debate there, but it doesn't make sense to me.

I know we're getting off subject, but can you be specific about what you are referring to in terms of loss of rights. I'm not saying I don't agree...I'm just curious.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by jsarno

I know we're getting off subject, but can you be specific about what you are referring to in terms of loss of rights. I'm not saying I don't agree...I'm just curious.

Have you ever heard of Jose Padilla?

You, a citizen of America (assuming you are a citizen), could be arrested and held without charge by the government for a very long time (perhaps forever), simply if they deem you an "enemy combatant". Due process? Forget about it. The "Patriot Act" (what an ironic name) has given the government the power to perform unconstitutional acts for the sake of fighting terrorism.

One of my favorite quotes:
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Hog,

Would you also say that the Government should ban fast food, mandate exercise, and tax fat people? Because cardio-vascular disease attributable to poor diet and lack of exercise has become the #1 killer in America and the single greatest reason why Americans have such poor health and pay so much for healthcare. That sounds like an awfully socialistic, paternalistic point of view - the people are too dumb to decide for themselves, the government must do it for them.

Or, as long as we are talking about social utility, what about guns? Guns have social utility only insofar as they can be used to protect against others with guns. Should people have the right to possess weapons that can kill, but not have the right to possess marijuana?

I know this was directed to Hog, SGG, but I'd like say that this kind of argument seems to say "legalize it all or don't make any of it legal".

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

Would you also say that the Government should ban fast food, mandate exercise, and tax fat people? Because cardio-vascular disease attributable to poor diet and lack of exercise has become the #1 killer in America and the single greatest reason why Americans have such poor health and pay so much for healthcare. That sounds like an awfully socialistic, paternalistic point of view - the people are too dumb to decide for themselves, the government must do it for them.

Or, as long as we are talking about social utility, what about guns? Guns have social utility only insofar as they can be used to protect against others with guns. Should people have the right to possess weapons that can kill, but not have the right to possess marijuana?

Very good point SGG. Also, the government should ban sex since STD's are rampant in our society, and since we as a society are too stupid to stop ourselves from self destructing, might as well let the government stop us.
It's a slippery slope, if we allow the government to pass laws to stop us from doing anything, we are in trouble as a society. Sure, we as a society are collectively stupid, but it's our choice to be so, that's the ugly side of democracy. The problem is (sorry to turn this into slightly political debate) the government has laws in place to help those who don't want to help themselves, and certain political parties have felt it was their responsibility to protect the self destructing human nature. Self responsibility needs to be taught, and demanded. If you want to smoke weed, then go ahead, but do it in moderation and with some forethought to your fellow human beings. I don't know how exactly we have become a society that could care less about others, but it's getting to be a huge problem. I could care less if you drink yourself stupid, but do so in your home and don't drive. Don't take a chance on hurting me or anyone other than yourself with anything you do.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Very good point SGG. Also, the government should ban sex since STD's are rampant in our society, and since we as a society are too stupid to stop ourselves from self destructing, might as well let the government stop us.
It's a slippery slope, if we allow the government to pass laws to stop us from doing anything, we are in trouble as a society. Sure, we as a society are collectively stupid, but it's our choice to be so, that's the ugly side of democracy. The problem is (sorry to turn this into slightly political debate) the government has laws in place to help those who don't want to help themselves, and certain political parties have felt it was their responsibility to protect the self destructing human nature. Self responsibility needs to be taught, and demanded. If you want to smoke weed, then go ahead, but do it in moderation and with some forethought to your fellow human beings. I don't know how exactly we have become a society that could care less about others, but it's getting to be a huge problem. I could care less if you drink yourself stupid, but do so in your home and don't drive. Don't take a chance on hurting me or anyone other than yourself with anything you do.

As you point out, maybe the problem is not the legalization of things and activities that are potentialy harmful, but the tax dollar umbrella ready to catch those that fall?
Remove the $$$, remove the problem????

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Hog1

As you point out, maybe the problem is not the legalization of things and activities that are potentialy harmful, but the tax dollar umbrella ready to catch those that fall?
Remove the $$$, remove the problem????

Wow, that thought could open a whole book of debate!
If the solution was easy, we would have already had one. Until then, I'll get my free weed from my buddy and smoke about once a month and play his PS3! haha

For the guy asking why someone smokes...cause it's so damn relaxing. It melts my stress away to nothing, and even though the affects wear off eventually, the stress does not come back to me.