Next years QB

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by redskinsfan1980

I think that Kirk Cousins could be good if he had a running game, bigger targets, and a defense. Last season he through a lot of picks, but he threw some tds too. I think he'll be benefit under a second season in the offense. We should have a open qb competition. As far as I'm concern RG3 hasn't shown me anything that would suggest that he's a franchise qb. He does have tremendous talent. So I'm not going to count him out. But I'm not optimistic about him or his future. If RG3 is named the starter it should be because he beat out all the other qbs on the roster. Our decision to start him shouldn't have anything to do with how much we gave up for him. I have a feelings that RG3 will be the starter because we want all of those picks we gave up to pay off. And not because he's the best qb on the roster.

At this point those picks better be considered a sunk cost and not factor into any decision with RG3. I personally don't think they will.

[redskinsfan1980]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

At this point those picks better be considered a sunk cost and not factor into any decision with RG3. I personally don't think they will.

If he wasn't named the starter going into the offseason then I would be more optimistic. We all know he's done nothing to earn the starting spot. The only reason they would do such a thing is because they're looking for some returns on their investment. In my opinion, it's totally alright to show patience, but this guy has been 100% pure garbage for the last two seasons. What makes me so pessimistic is that I haven't seen not one sign of improvement. Not only hasn't he not learned a thing about playing qb, but he still hasn't learnt to keep his mouth shut.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by redskinsfan1980

I think that Kirk Cousins could be good if he had a running game, bigger targets, and a defense. Last season he through a lot of picks, but he threw some tds too. I think he'll be benefit under a second season in the offense. We should have a open qb competition. As far as I'm concern RG3 hasn't shown me anything that would suggest that he's a franchise qb. He does have tremendous talent. So I'm not going to count him out. But I'm not optimistic about him or his future. If RG3 is named the starter it should be because he beat out all the other qbs on the roster. Our decision to start him shouldn't have anything to do with how much we gave up for him. I have a feelings that RG3 will be the starter because we want all of those picks we gave up to pay off. And not because he's the best qb on the roster.

Pretty much sums it up. The glitter of RG3 wore off for me in 2013 when his weaknesses were there for everyone to see. Not to mention all his off season antics.

[30gut]

2.5 seconds or less:
% of throws under 2.5 seconds/Attempts......Comp%.....Sacks.....QB rating
Rob...........................49%/122 atts.............80............7...............100
Colt...........................51%/74 atts..............74............2................. 89
Kirk............................60%/126 atts............70............2................102

Kirk threw more then half his passes in 2.5 or less had the lowest comp% and just edges out Griff in QB rating.
Griff threw about half his passes in less then 2.5 and had the highest comp% second highest rating but took the most sacks.
Colt again threw about half his passes in less then 2.5 had the middle comp% but lowest QB rating.

2.6 seconds or more:
% of throws over 2.6/Attempts.....Comp%.........Sacks...............QB rating
Rob........51%/92 atts.....................53..............26....... ...................66
Colt........49%/54 atts....................67...............15....... .................106
Kirk.........40%/78 atts...................49.................6....... ...................62



Colt separates himself highest QB rating and highest comp % but took sacks about the same rate as Griff ~3.5 snaps/sacks.
Kirk lowest comp% lowest QB rating but also the lowest sack ratio.
Griff was in the middle in terms of comp% and QB rating but like Colt took sacks.

[Defensewins]

I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison. You are only as good as who you play against, in this case they are Qb's, so what defenses did they play against?
Cousins played against two of the top defenses Seattle and Cardinals. two average defenses Giants and Eagles and one bad one Jax. Won 1 and lost 4. But he threw 10 TD's and 9 int's.
RGIII Played against 4 bad non-playoff teams: Tampa, Houston, Minnesota and Jax and one good team in SF. Did not win a single winnable game and most embarrassingly threw 2 td's and was sacked a ton.
Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's. I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'
Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more, proof is the fact that RGIII completing 21 more passes but Cousins threw for more yards and a lot TD's.

[ethat001]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison. You are only as good as who you play against, in this case they are Qb's, so what defenses did they play against?
Cousins played against two of the top defenses Seattle and Cardinals. two average defenses Giants and Eagles and one bad one Jax. Won 1 and lost 4. But he threw 10 TD's and 9 int's.
RGIII Played against 4 bad non-playoff teams: Tampa, Houston, Minnesota and Jax and one good team in SF. Did not win a single winnable game and most embarrassingly threw 2 td's and was sacked a ton.
Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's. I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'
Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more, proof is the fact that RGIII completing 21 more passes but Cousins threw for more yards and a lot TD's.

Nice post. This is why the coaches should know more about talent eval than these stats will ever show, always. Given differences in schemes, called plays, defenses, injuries around to OL/WR/opposing offenses, clutch plays vs 4th quarter trash time, etc. PFF and other websites purport to take all of it into account, but it's too complex to put into one chart.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison. You are only as good as who you play against, in this case they are Qb's, so what defenses did they play against?
Cousins played against two of the top defenses Seattle and Cardinals. two average defenses Giants and Eagles and one bad one Jax. Won 1 and lost 4. But he threw 10 TD's and 9 int's.
RGIII Played against 4 bad non-playoff teams: Tampa, Houston, Minnesota and Jax and one good team in SF. Did not win a single winnable game and most embarrassingly threw 2 td's and was sacked a ton.
Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's. I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'
Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more, proof is the fact that RGIII completing 21 more passes but Cousins threw for more yards and a lot TD's.

I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.

I would say 90 percent of skins fans DO realize this.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.

What really disappoints me the most about this particular subject is that Griffin does not get it. His bitching and whining to Gruden ain't gonna change this. He has to earn it on the field.
So he needs to follow the old school way of 'shut your HUGE mouth, put your head down and concentrate on the work in front of you. Listen to your coaches. Don't talk back to your coaches, they know more than you. Do not open your mouth again until you are promoted to the big boy playbook that the other QB's on your team are running.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too.

... just like he did in college. As Lotus (and others) are fond of mentioning, Cousins is, in many ways, Rex Grossman 2.0 - scary streaky. You almost can count on him to make a two gut wrenching turnovers a game.

Here's the thing for me - both KC and RGIII need to change from who they were in college and who they have been in the pros.

For RGIII, he has to transition from an entirely different way of playing the game and adapt his considerable talent to a style of play he has not only never mastered but has never really learned. IF he can dedicate himself to learning to be different from the QB he has always been, accept his NFL coaches coaching and finally put behind him all the "He's fine, his mechanics are good" enabling he gets from Tedford and Bryles, then maybe, maybe he gets his deep ball mojo back and his low turnover/sack ratio that he had back in college (look at his TD/INT ratio in college - it was insane. Yes, I know, it was a spread offense and, for the spread offense, QB's usually have very good TD/INT ratios). It is all on him - as others have said - to dedicate himself to the film room, listen to the coaches, and accept that he has to walk through an NFL offense before he run it. ---- If he can do all that, his ceiling - even in year four (the guy just turned 25 in February!) - is simply much, much higher than Kirk's.

For KC, he has to figure out how to stop throwing picks. He needs to change something in how he views the field, works his progressions, or makes his decisions. My problem is that, unlike RGIII's flaws, I just don't know that there is anything that coaching can do to change KC's basic inability to consistently avoid picks. Sure, Gruden dumbed down the offense for KC but KC's constant turnovers completely stymied Gruden:

[About what was causing KC's interceptions]“I don’t know. If I knew, I wouldn’t call those plays,” Gruden said. “They’ve come in bunches. The fourth quarters haven’t been very good to us and I think those are the most important times for us to make plays and get the win.

“I don’t know if he’s forcing them too much or just maybe hesitating on a couple of them. Sometimes you force them, sometimes you just miss the throws … Some of it’s an accuracy issue, some of it’s a footwork issue, some of them are just not believing in what he’s seeing, and some of them are forced.”

Jay Gruden Can't Explain Kirk Cousins' Interceptions

So, on one hand you have a QB currently incapable of running a pro offense and who has clearly identifiable flaws that may be fixable with solid coaching and a player dedicated to change - a trait the player has not readily demonstrated.

On the other, you have a QB who has a higher floor but is also deeply flawed. Further, it's not even clear that there is a path to fixing his flaws because he has been making the same mistakes throughout his collegiate and professional career and there is no clear, identifiable teaching/coaching point to correct them.

Quite frankly, as much as I truly hope Griffin can get it together and The Guy - I just don't know if he ever will be able to do so. As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

for what is worth, 6 of KC's 9 ints last year came when we were down by 9 points or more.

Why isn’t Kirk Cousins getting a shot to start? - The Washington Post

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

... just like he did in college. As Lotus (and others) are fond of mentioning, Cousins is, in many ways, Rex Grossman 2.0 - scary streaky. You almost can count on him to make a two gut wrenching turnovers a game.

Here's the thing for me - both KC and RGIII need to change from who they were in college and who they have been in the pros.

For RGIII, he has to transition from an entirely different way of playing the game and adapt his considerable talent to a style of play he has not only never mastered but has never really learned. IF he can dedicate himself to learning to be different from the QB he has always been, accept his NFL coaches coaching and finally put behind him all the "He's fine, his mechanics are good" enabling he gets from Tedford and Bryles, then maybe, maybe he gets his deep ball mojo back and his low turnover/sack ratio that he had back in college (look at his TD/INT ratio in college - it was insane. Yes, I know, it was a spread offense and, for the spread offense, QB's usually have very good TD/INT ratios). It is all on him - as others have said - to dedicate himself to the film room, listen to the coaches, and accept that he has to walk through an NFL offense before he run it. ---- If he can do all that, his ceiling - even in year four (the guy just turned 25 in February!) - is simply much, much higher than Kirk's.

For KC, he has to figure out how to stop throwing picks. He needs to change something in how he views the field, works his progressions, or makes his decisions. My problem is that, unlike RGIII's flaws, I just don't know that there is anything that coaching can do to change KC's basic inability to consistently avoid picks. Sure, Gruden dumbed down the offense for KC but KC's constant turnovers completely stymied Gruden:



Jay Gruden Can't Explain Kirk Cousins' Interceptions

So, on one hand you have a QB currently incapable of running a pro offense and who has clearly identifiable flaws that may be fixable with solid coaching and a player dedicated to change - a trait the player has not readily demonstrated.

On the other, you have a QB who has a higher floor but is also deeply flawed. Further, it's not even clear that there is a path to fixing his flaws because he has been making the same mistakes throughout his collegiate and professional career and there is no clear, identifiable teaching/coaching point to correct them.

Quite frankly, as much as I truly hope Griffin can get it together and The Guy - I just don't know if he ever will be able to do so. As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

Sadly a good breakdown of where we are. I am a tiny bit hopeful that actually having a full time QB Coach will move one of these two, KC/RG, up in the ranks, but right now it looks like we have only managed to do what the Redskins do so well - get stuck in 2 qb mode.

[ethat001]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

...For KC, he has to figure out how to stop throwing picks. He needs to change something in how he views the field, works his progressions, or makes his decisions. My problem is that, unlike RGIII's flaws, I just don't know that there is anything that coaching can do to change KC's basic inability to consistently avoid picks.

Three QBs, First 14 games of career, per game average
QB1 - 1.0 INT, 1.4 TD, 58% comp
QB2 - 1.3 INT, 1.3 TD, 59% comp
QB3 - 1.56 INT, 1.5 TD, 56.7% comp


Cousins is certainly not elite or top tier, and is no comparison to any top QB. However, just pointing out that other QB have struggled with interceptions when they started their careers. It doesn't mean he can't fix his issues long-term with experience, esp as we eventually can give him a lead & fix our O-line/running game/etc. Also if our Defense gets better, the INTs may not hurt as much. (QB1-3 are Luck, Cousins, and Peyton Manning)

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

... just like he did in college. As Lotus (and others) are fond of mentioning, Cousins is, in many ways, Rex Grossman 2.0 - scary streaky. You almost can count on him to make a two gut wrenching turnovers a game.

Here's the thing for me - both KC and RGIII need to change from who they were in college and who they have been in the pros.

For RGIII, he has to transition from an entirely different way of playing the game and adapt his considerable talent to a style of play he has not only never mastered but has never really learned. IF he can dedicate himself to learning to be different from the QB he has always been, accept his NFL coaches coaching and finally put behind him all the "He's fine, his mechanics are good" enabling he gets from Tedford and Bryles, then maybe, maybe he gets his deep ball mojo back and his low turnover/sack ratio that he had back in college (look at his TD/INT ratio in college - it was insane. Yes, I know, it was a spread offense and, for the spread offense, QB's usually have very good TD/INT ratios). It is all on him - as others have said - to dedicate himself to the film room, listen to the coaches, and accept that he has to walk through an NFL offense before he run it. ---- If he can do all that, his ceiling - even in year four (the guy just turned 25 in February!) - is simply much, much higher than Kirk's.

For KC, he has to figure out how to stop throwing picks. He needs to change something in how he views the field, works his progressions, or makes his decisions. My problem is that, unlike RGIII's flaws, I just don't know that there is anything that coaching can do to change KC's basic inability to consistently avoid picks. Sure, Gruden dumbed down the offense for KC but KC's constant turnovers completely stymied Gruden:



Jay Gruden Can't Explain Kirk Cousins' Interceptions

So, on one hand you have a QB currently incapable of running a pro offense and who has clearly identifiable flaws that may be fixable with solid coaching and a player dedicated to change - a trait the player has not readily demonstrated.

On the other, you have a QB who has a higher floor but is also deeply flawed. Further, it's not even clear that there is a path to fixing his flaws because he has been making the same mistakes throughout his collegiate and professional career and there is no clear, identifiable teaching/coaching point to correct them.

Quite frankly, as much as I truly hope Griffin can get it together and The Guy - I just don't know if he ever will be able to do so. As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

Well as far as college goes, KC had a 2 to 1 int ratio in a tough conference. He threw about 1 pick per 40 attempts or so? Not bad at all. Here? He's struggled like all QB's do. Just like Andrew Luck did as well. Is he suppose to be any different?

But you may be right. He might be the kind of guy that has some ints, kind of like Romo. But he also made many plays from the pocket as well. But I'll take that guy over one who can't do the basics. Give me a guy who can throw for 30 plus Td's and between 4500 and 5,000 and maybe 17 to 20 picks, over a guy who basically can't run the regular offense.

[DYoungJelly]

Stat comparison from both Philly games last year:

1st game Cousins:

Washington Redskins vs. Philadelphia Eagles - Box Score - September 21, 2014 - ESPN

2nd Game Griffin:

Philadelphia Eagles vs. Washington Redskins - Box Score - December 20, 2014 - ESPN

Cousins -------------------------------Griffin
30/48----------------------------------16/23 Completions/ Attempts
427 Passing yards --------------------220 Passing yards
3 TD------------------------------------0 TD
1 INT-----------------------------------1 INT
0 QB HITS -----------------------------7 QB HITS
0 Sacks---------------------------------2 Sacks

Redskins Team rushing:
23/84 Attempts/Yards-----------------29/100 Attempts/Yards
3.0 yard average-----------------------3.4 yard average


Griffin edged Cousins in the only stat that mattered, the final score.

I love Cousins' stat line from the first game, but I love the outcome from the second game more. The defense did play a role in the outcome of both games.

Despite the numbers, JG didn't have enough confidence in Cousins to put him in at the end of the season.

If Griffin is truly our starter going into 2015, then our most pressing need is a reliable 2nd string QB that can come in when the next catastrophic injury happens.