With the 5th pick in the draft the Washington Redskins select...

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Oh, so your building for next year's immediate needs? I thought we were committed to a long term build rather than simply pissing on the fire closest to our feet.



Name one player we have cut or failed to obtain based on mismanagement of the cap (as opposed to the penalty levied by the NFL).

If you're concerned about next year's cap, BTW, Cooper makes more sense b/c we can clear a ton of cap space by cutting DJax or Garcon and still have a solid starting WR tandem.


Again, if any of the OLB pass-rushers were seen as guaranteed "high floor" guys, sure, you take one of them over Cooper. None are. Each has flaws. As I have said before, at 5, I would rather pick the player with the best chance at success at this level as opposed to a guy who may be great but may bust.

Let me ask you this, if instead of Cooper and Fowler/Beasley/Ray/Gregory, the choice were Art Monk or Brian Orakpo, who do you pick?

None, I take Timmy Smith. Duh!!!

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

But in all seriousness, if Cooper is there at 5 and Leonard Williams isn't, I don't see how you don't take him. Like Joe said, safest pick and to all that say you can find a WR anywhere, you can find any position anywhere. So with that in mind, let's all welcome Amari Cooper to the Washington Redskins with class and style.

[over the mountain]

i havent followed the draft prospects too close but I really like how it is playing out.

I see 4 premium players - williams, winston, fowler, marriota.

If any one of these players are available at 5, i would take them.

I know I spoke harshly about winston's perceived character before but i have changed my tune.

i really hope one of the 4 drops to us. if not, we have a ton of options and god forbid we have to pick beasley or shelton or hart or some other top talent.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

i havent followed the draft prospects too close but I really like how it is playing out.

I see 4 premium players - williams, winston, fowler, marriota.

If any one of these players are available at 5, i would take them.

I know I spoke harshly about winston's perceived character before but i have changed my tune.

i really hope one of the 4 drops to us. if not, we have a ton of options and god forbid we have to pick beasley or shelton or hart or some other top talent.

Jimbo Fisher says free crab legs for Jameis Winston was isolated incident | ProFootballTalk

he didnt steal them, he was just entitled to free crab legs

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Jimbo Fisher says free crab legs for Jameis Winston was isolated incident | ProFootballTalk

he didnt steal them, he was just entitled to free crab legs

Winston is kinda dumb. Free crab legs bc you are a Florida State athlete = benefits = ban hammer.

Jimbo of course says isolated incident, our athletes have never receive benefits.

Joe - re Fowler, i thought consensus was that Fowler was the premiere pass rusher with an explosive first step. He was in tier 1 for pass rushers with the Shane ray and Gregories of the world in the 2nd tier.

I saw Cooper play a few times, consistent, polished, good job tracking the ball in the air and adjusting his body to make the catch.

talking pundits say Hart has the height (6'2'), arm length, hand size, speed and vertical to be the next big game, go up and get it receiver .. with pop the top speed.

cooper isnt far behind, 6'0', bigger hands but isnt as much of an athlete as hart. hart being a physical specimen of sorts.


what i love, we cant really go wrong unless we trade back so far we end up with a bunch of B/C grade players.

[JoeRedskin]

I keep hearing mixed reviews on Fowler:

According to some, a premium athlete at the position.

According to others, lacks explosion, solid all around but not a premium pass-rusher who will take time to develop into that role - if he does at all.

If there is something I am missing on the guy, I am happy to hear it. I agree that a pass-rushing OLB is a bigger immediate need than WR (duh!), but I am not seeing the "specialness" that puts Fowler on the level of Williams or Cooper.

[For those suggesting we bypass Cooper: Think about it, unless Fowler/Beasley/Ray/Gregory are on the same talent level as Cooper/Williams, then folks are saying that we should knowingly take a lesser talent - just b/c no immediate need exists for the clearly superior talent. Sorry, I just don't see that as a blueprint for long-term success].

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I keep hearing mixed reviews on Fowler:

According to some, a premium athlete at the position.

According to others, lacks explosion, solid all around but not a premium pass-rusher who will take time to develop into that role - if he does at all.

If there is something I am missing on the guy, I am happy to hear it. I agree that a pass-rushing OLB is a bigger immediate need than WR (duh!), but I am not seeing the "specialness" that puts Fowler on the level of Williams or Cooper.

[For those suggesting we bypass Cooper: Think about it, unless Fowler/Beasley/Ray/Gregory are on the same talent level as Cooper/Williams, then folks are saying that we should knowingly take a lesser talent - just b/c no immediate need exists for the clearly superior talent. Sorry, I just don't see that as a blueprint for long-term success].

What separates him from others is size, strength, and nastiness at the point of attack. Where you worry about guys like Beasley and Shane Ray is their ability to set the edge against the run game. Athletic for sure, but can they hold the point of attack and get off blocks. If they're not strong enough to hold the point of attack then the ILBs get sealed off in the wash and it's a good shot at a 5 yard gain at minimum on most runs to their side.

Fowler definitely will not have that problem. He's by far the strongest of the edge rushers available. He seats and digs in.

18 sack guy? Maybe never. A Ryan Kerrigan clone with maybe a bit more upside? Yes.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

What separates him from others is size, strength, and nastiness at the point of attack. Where you worry about guys like Beasley and Shane Ray is their ability to set the edge against the run game. Athletic for sure, but can they hold the point of attack and get off blocks. If they're not strong enough to hold the point of attack then the ILBs get sealed off in the wash and it's a good shot at a 5 yard gain at minimum on most runs to their side.

Fowler definitely will not have that problem. He's by far the strongest of the edge rushers available. He seats and digs in.

18 sack guy? Maybe never. A Ryan Kerrigan clone with maybe a bit more upside? Yes.

I know bench press doesn't really gauge game strength, but Beasley did have more reps than Fowler but I do understand that.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

I know bench press doesn't really gauge game strength, but Beasley did have more reps than Fowler but I do understand that.

Yeah that means jack shit. You don't anchor against a run block with your pecs, you do it with your entire body, most of all your ass, thighs and core.

Squat would be a better measure.

[DYoungJelly]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Yeah that means jack shit. You don't anchor against a run block with your pecs, you do it with your entire body, most of all your ass, thighs and core.

Squat would be a better measure.

I can't find it quickly but I'm fairly certain I heard McLovin talking about how he gauges the strength of a player in one of his earlier interviews after being named the GM.

He looks at how they perform against other players on film; who gets pushed around versus who does the pushing around.

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

[For those suggesting we bypass Cooper: Think about it, unless Fowler/Beasley/Ray/Gregory are on the same talent level as Cooper/Williams, then folks are saying that we should knowingly take a lesser talent - just b/c no immediate need exists for the clearly superior talent. Sorry, I just don't see that as a blueprint for long-term success].

You're beating that Cooper drum so hard it's about to make my ears bleed. There is absolutely no guarantee that he will become a better NFL player than the other players you named. In the end, drafting is still a SWAG.

Wasn't J.J. Watt drafted 11th, or something like that? Ten NFL GM's who are paid to draft the right player in the 1st Round passed on him because they thought they were drafting players who would be better than him in the NFL. They were wrong.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

You're beating that Cooper drum so hard it's about to make my ears bleed. There is absolutely no guarantee that he will become a better NFL player than the other players you named.

You're right.

It should go without saying that of course there aren't any guarantees when it comes to the draft.

But that's true for any prospect.

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by 30gut

You're right.

It should go without saying that of course there aren't any guarantees when it comes to the draft.

But that's true for any prospect.

Guarantees? No but you can make the argument for the "safer" bet, or the higher floor player.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

Guarantees? No but you can make the argument for the "safer" bet, or the higher floor player.

I've always considered 'safer' as a throw away claim when a draftnik likes a prospect.

My view of the draft is the best that can be achieved is the proper evaluation of players based on production and skillset then ranked against the other prospects based on their production and skillset.

To me all the prediction stuff is bunk, people are unpredictable.

Evaluate. Rank. Decide.

Then...cheer or cry but always hope.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by KI Skins Fan

You're beating that Cooper drum so hard it's about to make my ears bleed. There is absolutely no guarantee that he will become a better NFL player than the other players you named. In the end, drafting is still a SWAG.

Wasn't J.J. Watt drafted 11th, or something like that? Ten NFL GM's who are paid to draft the right player in the 1st Round passed on him because they thought they were drafting players who would be better than him in the NFL. They were wrong.

Of course it's all a crapshoot. All the more reason to pick the guy you believe to be the best available player. Sure, there are no guarantees but that doesn't mean you ignore reality either. If McC has Fowler ranked higher than or in the same tier as Cooper - great. A clear top tier guy in an area of need - no brainer.

My only point with Cooper is that every evaluation I have seen on him says there are no obvious flaws in his game, that he has terrific measurable, that his college production was excellent, he's a great character guy, and that his comparables in the NFL are all pro-bowl caliber players (Tory Holt and AJ Green are the names most often mentioned). Given those factors, you shouldn't bypass him - b/c he doesn't fill an area of immediate need - to select players who do not have those factors working for them and, thus, are not in his talent tier. None of the top four OLB's have all those factors working in their favor and each has a pretty glaring hole (Fowler-production, Ray/Beasley - measurables, Gregory - character).

As to JJ Watt. Sure - he was the 11th picked. Have you looked at who else was picked in the top 10 that year? Here they are (in order):

Cam Newton (Offensive Rookie of the year, 2 pro bowls)
Von Miller (3 x pro bowl, 3 x all pro)
Marcell Dareus (2 x pro bowl, 1 x all pro)
A.J. Green (4 x pro bowl, 1 x all pro)
Patrick Peterson (4 x pro bowl, 2 x all pro)
Julio Jones (2 x pro bowl)
Aldon Smith (1 x pro bowl, 1 x all pro)
Jake Locker
Tyron Smith (2 x pro bowl, 2 x all pro)
Blaine Gabbert

Other than Locker & Gabbert, that is not a shoddy bunch - pro bowlers (and all pros) all through the list. Unlike this year, it was a deep draft all through the top 10 BUT the two teams (Tenn & Jax) that bypassed Watt and drafted for need got burned. I imagine everybody else on that list is pretty pleased with their pick (okay, maybe SF would like to switch it out).

[EDIT: added pro bowl/all pro awards. Yes, JJ Watt has out performed them all to date (3 PB, 3 AP, 2 x Def. Player of the year; MVP Runner-up 2014). At the same time, if we get someone the equivalent to any of the other position players by going BPA regardless of immediate need, I will be very happy and not complain that someone else struck gold by picking this year's JJ Watt.]

As I said, if you forego a guy you believe to be the better talent because he does not fill an immediate need, than you are consciously choosing players of lesser talent and that just is not a good plan for a long term build.