For all you D Hall lovers

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

ok that is crazy.... you quoted and posted a post i hadnt submitted yet. The post at the top of the page, i just submitted less than 1 minute ago. this is creepy!

I said that because every year, once free agency starts, prices rise and they keep rising. In the end, a lesser talent like Leigh Bodden or Dre Bly is going to cost us just as much to sign as it would have cost to sign Hall a week ago... teams have a ton of cap space and if they need an upgrade at a position, they'll overpay for him. that puts other teams in a panic and then they overpay. the standard of pay is constantly raised (simple supply/demand relationship)

of course, theres always the option to let skip the first crazy couple of weeks in free agency and then go after the scraps that are left over, but you are always left with marginal guys when you do that. youre getting cheap replacements and your team is worse off as a result.

IMO, the smart teams do the following in free agency:

1) Resign their own "top tier" free agents BEFORE free agency starts. You will save a ton of money short-term and long-term doing this. You also take the least amount of risk here becaues youre getting a guy you know works well in your system.
2) For the most part, avoid the first two weeks of free agency entirely. Let your own nominal players test the market (like we did with Rock last year). If they get an offer from another team, consider matching it, but dont break the bank. if you wait, you can get comparable nominal players once everything settles down at a cheaper price.
3) Upgrade your teams depth once everything "settles down" after all the big guys are signed.

BHA I have to agree w/ your last two posts but could play the devil's advocate here... Zorn and the FO may just be playing it very shrewd here if they have good reason to believe 1) Hall will not get the kind of money he's looking for elsewhere and/or 2) Hall is gonna prefer to stay close to home anyway then waiting till after FA begins will just save us some money. Honestly i've no real idea what the likely outcome is here... i will say if Hall walks away to get big money w/ a solid team and have great success in the years ahead when we could have signed him now for something reasonable then good fans ought to (rightly) start clamoring for an overhaul of the FO.

[MTK]

I think you can almost discount the deal the Raiders gave out. It's so off the charts and unconventional I don't think agents are going to have much success trying to use it as a benchmark for other corners.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I think you can almost discount the deal the Raiders gave out. It's so off the charts and unconventional I don't think agents are going to have much success trying to use it as a benchmark for other corners.

The contract itself is fairly unconventional, but it did raise the bar. I think the contract for Chris Gamble is what most teams will go off of. Haydens contract with Indy is very similar. Thats the benchmark guys like Hall, Bodden, Bly, and others will be looking at. obviously, the guys have varying skill levels, but their agents will be looking at those contracts and trying to get their players contracts along the same lines, with the total value and garaunteed money increasing or decreasing depending on the players perceived value as opposed to that of Gamble and Hayden (long sentence, h ope it makes sense)

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

The contract itself is fairly unconventional, but it did raise the bar. I think the contract for Chris Gamble is what most teams will go off of. Haydens contract with Indy is very similar. Thats the benchmark guys like Hall, Bodden, Bly, and others will be looking at. obviously, the guys have varying skill levels, but their agents will be looking at those contracts and trying to get their players contracts along the same lines, with the total value and garaunteed money increasing or decreasing depending on the players perceived value as opposed to that of Gamble and Hayden (long sentence, h ope it makes sense)

Hall, Bodden, and Bly have all been traded for at some point in the last two years and then released within the past year. They are all in sort of the same bracket money-wise, which is no where near Gamble/Hayden/franchise corner type-money.

I'd take Hall over Bodden and Bly, personally, but those guys are close enough in skill to where I would take any one of them if they were significantly cheaper than the others.

[SmootSmack]

We didn't trade a 3rd and 4th for Kendall

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

We didn't trade a 3rd and 4th for Kendall

Right, i forgot, it was duckett we gave up the 3rd and 4th for. kendall was just a 4th. i'll update my post. thanks.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

We didn't trade a 3rd and 4th for Kendall

Didn't we give up a 3rd in '07 and a 4th in '09 for Kendall?

Back on topic, if Hall isn't re-signed he falls in the same barrel as Dockery, Pierce, Smoot (in '06) and Clark of players that we could have retained at less than market prices but didn't and it costs us more down the line. Not that Dockery, Smoot or Clark were all pros but think about the direct impact those three decisions had on how our team looks today.

Dockery-After not signing him we made the ill fated decision to not draft another OL and instead tried to replace him with tackle Todd Wade. After disastrous results in the pre-season we spent 2 draft picks on a 32 year old Pete Kendall.

Smoot-Because his departure created a large hole at starting CB we drafted Carlos Rogers instead of DeMarcus Ware-who ended up with a division rival and has at least one sack per game vs. Chris Samuels or Shawn Merriman who before this season's injury was one of the most dominant LB in the game.

Clark-After whiffing badly on Archuleta and an over matched Reed Doughty the team drafted Laron Landry at #6 forming what could have been a devastating safety tandem for the next decade. After the Taylor murder the Skins are 'stuck' with a player that could be a dominant strong safety a la Polumalu but have to play him 30 yards off the ball at free safety which severely limits his effectiveness.

Pierce has proven to be the best MLB in the division and one of the top 3 in the conference while we had to spend big money on Fletcher and will have to sign or draft his replacement within 2 years. Outside of Lloyd (which cost money AND picks) that decision was the worst personnel moves by the team in the past 10 years.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Didn't we give up a 3rd in '07 and a 4th in '09 for Kendall?

Back on topic, if Hall isn't re-signed he falls in the same barrel as Dockery, Pierce, Smoot (in '06) and Clark of players that we could have retained at less than market prices but didn't and it costs us more down the line. Not that Dockery, Smoot or Clark were all pros but think about the direct impact those three decisions had on how our team looks today.

Dockery-After not signing him we made the ill fated decision to not draft another OL and instead tried to replace him with tackle Todd Wade. After disastrous results in the pre-season we spent 2 draft picks on a 32 year old Pete Kendall.

Smoot-Because his departure created a large hole at starting CB we drafted Carlos Rogers instead of DeMarcus Ware-who ended up with a division rival and has at least one sack per game vs. Chris Samuels or Shawn Merriman who before this season's injury was one of the most dominant LB in the game.

Clark-After whiffing badly on Archuleta and an over matched Reed Doughty the team drafted Laron Landry at #6 forming what could have been a devastating safety tandem for the next decade. After the Taylor murder the Skins are 'stuck' with a player that could be a dominant strong safety a la Polumalu but have to play him 30 yards off the ball at free safety which severely limits his effectiveness.

Pierce has proven to be the best MLB in the division and one of the top 3 in the conference while we had to spend big money on Fletcher and will have to sign or draft his replacement within 2 years. Outside of Lloyd (which cost money AND picks) that decision was the worst personnel moves by the team in the past 10 years.

It was just one pick

Jets' Kendall dealt to Redskins for mid-round draft pick - NFL - ESPN

The Jets will receive a fifth-round pick in 2008 if Kendall plays 80 percent of the snaps this year for Washington; if he plays more than that, the pick would be upgraded to a fourth-rounder in 2009.

[CRedskinsRule]

I think the FO is handling it reasonably, which is to let the market shake out.
I imagine Hall could sign a contract with multi-million dollars guaranteed right now with us, and this after getting 8million from the Raiders. I think a reasonable argument can be made that if Hall is holding us up for the Max dollars, then chances are he has not learned anything and his time with us was just to get a fat contract.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think a reasonable argument can be made that if Hall is holding us up for the Max dollars, then chances are he has not learned anything and his time with us was just to get a fat contract.

Stop with this logic and well reasoned thinking, it has no place here.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think the FO is handling it reasonably, which is to let the market shake out.
I imagine Hall could sign a contract with multi-million dollars guaranteed right now with us, and this after getting 8million from the Raiders. I think a reasonable argument can be made that if Hall is holding us up for the Max dollars, then chances are he has not learned anything and his time with us was just to get a fat contract.

Well said my friend.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think the FO is handling it reasonably, which is to let the market shake out.
I imagine Hall could sign a contract with multi-million dollars guaranteed right now with us, and this after getting 8million from the Raiders. I think a reasonable argument can be made that if Hall is holding us up for the Max dollars, then chances are he has not learned anything and his time with us was just to get a fat contract.

sources inside reskins park indicated that when the redskins and Hall were talking a month ago, Hall was wanting 16M garaunteed and the skins were offering 12 and not budging.

Once Hall and his agent started seeing the kind of money other teams were going to be paying their corners, Hall likely decided his best option was to head to free agency. I mean, why would a guy sign for 12M garaunteed when guys of equal or lesser talent to him are getting almost TWICE that (Hayden). Hall would be a fool to sign with us for 12 at this point. At this point, Hall probably is the one holding things up. But we wouldnt even be in this situation if the skins had not given Hall 14-16M garaunteed when they had the chance a few weeks ago.

In the end, the redskins stingyness with its own free agents is apparent and in 2-3 years, we will look back on this as another dumb move by the FO.

Originally Posted by 53Fan

You mean like with Oakland last year? That's not gonna happen because Hall learned his lesson. Money isn't everything. Remember?

Yes, Hall learned that being part of a dysfunctional franchise for a lot of money is not worth it. if Hall resigns here, he would be signing with a dysfunctional franchise for not much money at all. He was willing to do that a month ago, because we were the team he grew up rooting for. Now, we've probably lost him.

if hall has learned his lesson, he will sign for his fair market value at a team that is well run. The skins stinginess may be the best thing that ever happens to him when he winds up with a team like New England, Baltimore, or Green Bay.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

sources inside reskins park indicated that when the redskins and Hall were talking a month ago, Hall was wanting 16M garaunteed and the skins were offering 12 and not budging.

Once Hall and his agent started seeing the kind of money other teams were going to be paying their corners, Hall likely decided his best option was to head to free agency. I mean, why would a guy sign for 12M garaunteed when guys of equal or lesser talent to him are getting almost TWICE that (Hayden). Hall would be a fool to sign with us for 12 at this point. At this point, Hall probably is the one holding things up. But we wouldnt even be in this situation if the skins had not given Hall 14-16M garaunteed when they had the chance a few weeks ago.

In the end, the redskins stingyness with its own free agents is apparent and in 2-3 years, we will look back on this as another dumb move by the FO.


Yes, Hall learned that being part of a dysfunctional franchise for a lot of money is not worth it. if Hall resigns here, he would be signing with a dysfunctional franchise for not much money at all. He was willing to do that a month ago, because we were the team he grew up rooting for. Now, we've probably lost him.

if hall has learned his lesson, he will sign for his fair market value at a team that is well run. The skins stinginess may be the best thing that ever happens to him when he winds up with a team like New England, Baltimore, or Green Bay.

I think this situation is being handled well by both sides. It seems that there were some discussions before, when some figures about a potential deal were mentioned by JLC, showing that the team wanted to re-sign Hall or at least they were in discussions.

If you were Hall, and you knew that there were a number of CBs in the market (Asomugha, Dunta Robinson, Hayden), wouldn't you have want to wait and see how the market played out? So good for him if he wants to test the market.

That's a risk you take with players who want to become free agents. You can try and get them early, or they will tell you that they want to test the market. Honestly, I don't know why people are getting so worked up over this.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

sources inside reskins park indicated that when the redskins and Hall were talking a month ago, Hall was wanting 16M garaunteed and the skins were offering 12 and not budging.

Once Hall and his agent started seeing the kind of money other teams were going to be paying their corners, Hall likely decided his best option was to head to free agency. I mean, why would a guy sign for 12M garaunteed when guys of equal or lesser talent to him are getting almost TWICE that (Hayden).

Fair or not, Hall got his BIG contract last year, and he was cut. I just don't think that fact should be ignored

Hall would be a fool to sign with us for 12 at this point. At this point, Hall probably is the one holding things up. But we wouldnt even be in this situation if the skins had not given Hall 14-16M garaunteed when they had the chance a few weeks ago.

In the end, the redskins stingyness with its own free agents is apparent and in 2-3 years, we will look back on this as another dumb move by the FO.

Look I can agree with Pierce and Ryan, I hated those two players leaving, but they were "proven Redskins", made sacrifices for the team, played their role, and then when they got their shot, we did not step up. But Hall, regardless of talent(which I admit my bias that while his hands are incredible, his coverage is not as good -imo), is not worthy of a Skins for life contract. If he goes, I will still miss Champ more than him, and will wish him success, just not against us.

Yes, Hall learned that being part of a dysfunctional franchise for a lot of money is not worth it. if Hall resigns here, he would be signing with a dysfunctional franchise for not much money at all. He was willing to do that a month ago, because we were the team he grew up rooting for. Now, we've probably lost him.

if hall has learned his lesson, he will sign for his fair market value at a team that is well run. The skins stinginess may be the best thing that ever happens to him when he winds up with a team like New England, Baltimore, or Green Bay.

I get it, you hate the FO, but I have to wonder if Vinny/Snyder were giving him 18-20M guaranteed at the very outset, or if they had signed him off of waivers if you would not have been screaming just how dumb the FO is for bringing in Hall in the first place.

I don't think the Skins FO is dysfunctional, and I think there is solid proof that they are learning every year. But on that we will most likely have to agree to disagree.

And one last note- I would like Hall to be back here, but not for more than 12M guaranteed. Give the rest to him in incentives. That works.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

if hall has learned his lesson, he will sign for his fair market value at a team that is well run. The skins stinginess may be the best thing that ever happens to him when he winds up with a team like New England, Baltimore, or Green Bay.

This is where you lose me BHA. I like the points you bring up but then you say things like this. Do you really think N.E. would pay Hall the type of money you propose? This from a team that said no to Assante Samuel? I don't think anyone here opposes having Hall on our team. But to give him a huge contract just doesn't make sense to me. Why not offer him a good 3 year deal? If he doesn't turn out to be the player some think he will be, then we're not stuck with him forever. If he doe's turn out well, then we can either resign him or Tag him for at least 2 years. Or MAYBE even draft his replacement in the meantime. Having a shutdown corner, which Hall is not, does'nt guarantee wins. I give you Champ Bailey. Our secondary was one of our strengths before Hall even got here. If we're going to spend some money let's get Carey and a kicker in here and draft an OLB who can get to the QB. I think these things will go further toward making the playoffs on a consistent basis than giving Hall a big longterm deal.