Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!

[tryfuhl]

yes but I won't commit to him deserving it

[The Goat]

JC is more valuable to the Washington Redskins than he is to any other franchise in football. He's the only starting caliber QB to have played under Zorn's system... ever. He also is becoming the leader of this offense and personally I think by opening day his status will be solidified. But most importantly as we speak JC and Zorn are scheming, strategizing and tweaking the playbook and Jason's game to maximize potential. Jason was solid when the o-line protected him, and that was w/ minimal experience in the new offense. This year, if we continue to upgrade the line and get better performance from the WR corp, Jason Campbell will be the out and out shit.

... it almost baffles me anyone thinks a brand new QB would automatically outperform JC under the reality of our circumstances. A crumbled, old, slow, small offensive line and WRs who somehow manage to drop EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN PASS THAT TOUCHES THEIR HANDS... i think most NFL QBs, including Cutler, would have long ago thrown everyone else under the bus in frustration. Some would likely have asked for a trade. Jason is a character guy... he's stuck it out under grueling circumstances, taking heavyweight shots through the entire 2nd half of last season, and yet he always stays in there and carries himself like a professional.

... honest to God if the FO traded him right now I'd have to believe Vinny is an insane person.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by The Goat

JC is more valuable to the Washington Redskins than he is to any other franchise in football. He's the only starting caliber QB to have played under Zorn's system... ever. He also is becoming the leader of this offense and personally I think by opening day his status will be solidified. But most importantly as we speak JC and Zorn are scheming, strategizing and tweaking the playbook and Jason's game to maximize potential. Jason was solid when the o-line protected him, and that was w/ minimal experience in the new offense. This year, if we continue to upgrade the line and get better performance from the WR corp, Jason Campbell will be the out and out shit.

... it almost baffles me anyone thinks a brand new QB would automatically outperform JC under the reality of our circumstances. A crumbled, old, slow, small offensive line and WRs who somehow manage to drop EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN PASS THAT TOUCHES THEIR HANDS... i think most NFL QBs, including Cutler, would have long ago thrown everyone else under the bus in frustration. Some would likely have asked for a trade. Jason is a character guy... he's stuck it out under grueling circumstances, taking heavyweight shots through the entire 2nd half of last season, and yet he always stays in there and carries himself like a professional.

... honest to God if the FO traded him right now I'd have to believe Vinny is an insane person.

I guess everyone has different opinions. Personally, im 99% sure that Zorn and Campbell are not scheming anything on a Sunday evening in March... As to Jasons value to this organizations, as of right now, he IS the quarterback and the QB is the single most important position on the team, so youre right, hes valuable. His success or failure in Zorns system this year is the most significant factor in whether this team has short and long-term success.

You criticize our offensive line, but you evidently are unaware that it was one of the better offensive lines in football last year (By better I mean top 16). I dont know why some people find this hard to understand, so let me break it down to you -

Quarterbacks like Campbell are only successful in offenses with strong running games and extremely good pass-protecting offensive lineman. Why? Because Jason Campbell has (and has always had) a problem holding on to the ball too long. It was one of his biggest problems coming out of college and its his biggest problem now. Campbell will never ever be successful behind an o-line that is anything less than top5. Campbell has an incredible arm and deadly accuracy with his longball - but if an offensive line cannot consistently give him inordinate amounts of time, its of no use.

Quarterbacks like Cutler (and other prototypical WCO QBs) dont have strong arms like Campbell. They dont always have the deadly accurate deepball. What they do have, on the other hand, is the ability to get the ball out of their hands quickly. What they do have is the ability to make quick decisions. Campbell has struggled with these things his entire career, at the college and professional level. Gibbs and Saunders systems were well suited for someone like Campbell. Zorns is not. Pairing Zorn and Campbell together was an incredibly foolish decision on Cerratos part. I can understand why he did it (Campbell is everything you want your franchise QB to be in terms of his leadership, attitude, desire to learn, willingness to do whatever is asked of him without complaining, etc), but it was a huge gamble and one that has little chance of working out. We all know Zorn can teach, but Campbell is what he is. He has strengths and he has limitations, like all QBs, but the WCO is a horrible fit for him.

Given our offensive line is just average, and the fact it will take years for it to become elite, and given the fact we are running a WCO that doesnt require a powerful line, the most important thing for this offense to step forward is to have a QB who can make quick decisions, anticipate the receiver making his break, and get rid of the ball quickly - Jay Cutler can do that - look what he did in Denver behind that line (which is far worse than ours).

And please, please please, dont use receiver drops as an excuse. Our WR situation isnt great, but its not utterly horrible either. Every teams receivers drop passes in every game. Its not something thats unique to our team. Its just the lamest of all excuses people make for quarterbacks. People made the same excuses for Ramsey, so its not surprising they are making it now for Campbell. Either way, their careers may very well take very similar paths.

Whether people agree that the skins should pursue Cutler or not (if Brennan has legitimate potential, then theres no reason to rush after Cutler), Campbell is not going anywhere in this offense. He wont singlehandedly lose games for us, but he wont be winning any for us either... not unless Zorn changes his entire offense around to take advantage of Campbells skillset.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Given our offensive line is just average, and the fact it will take years for it to become elite, and given the fact we are running a WCO that doesnt require a powerful line, the most important thing for this offense to step forward is to have a QB who can make quick decisions, anticipate the receiver making his break, and get rid of the ball quickly - Jay Cutler can do that - look what he did in Denver behind that line (which is far worse than ours).

LOL!

Oh man.

You know who had the best run-blocking line in the league last year by A(djusted)L(ine)Y(ards)?

Denver.

You know who's line gave up a sack on 3% of QB dropbacks, second best (4th adjusted for opponent quality) in the NFL?

Denver.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

I don't disagree that people think the problem with our OL is over-publicized, and that we're closer to the median line than people think, and that it's not a huge reason for our offensive failures (compared to the receiving), but c'mon, you're obviously just making stuff up now.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by The Goat

JC is more valuable to the Washington Redskins than he is to any other franchise in football. He's the only starting caliber QB to have played under Zorn's system... ever. He also is becoming the leader of this offense and personally I think by opening day his status will be solidified. But most importantly as we speak JC and Zorn are scheming, strategizing and tweaking the playbook and Jason's game to maximize potential. Jason was solid when the o-line protected him, and that was w/ minimal experience in the new offense. This year, if we continue to upgrade the line and get better performance from the WR corp, Jason Campbell will be the out and out shit.

... it almost baffles me anyone thinks a brand new QB would automatically outperform JC under the reality of our circumstances. A crumbled, old, slow, small offensive line and WRs who somehow manage to drop EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN PASS THAT TOUCHES THEIR HANDS... i think most NFL QBs, including Cutler, would have long ago thrown everyone else under the bus in frustration. Some would likely have asked for a trade. Jason is a character guy... he's stuck it out under grueling circumstances, taking heavyweight shots through the entire 2nd half of last season, and yet he always stays in there and carries himself like a professional.

... honest to God if the FO traded him right now I'd have to believe Vinny is an insane person.

Good post. Folks tend to pick and choose when character becomes a big issue or when it does not. There are all these trade rumors swirling around, and Campbell hasn't said a lick, meanwhile Cutler is throwing a T.O.-like tantrum. When there were talks about Haynesworth, D. Hall, any other player with past issues, people went nuts with the character issue talk. Now because people think that Campbell is the sole problem the Redskins have, they don't care about character. And if there's any position where you don't want a guy with questionable character, is QB.

Honestly, I don't think Cutler and Campbell are that much different as far as talent. If you want to assign a numerical value, Scouts Inc has Campbell rated at 74 and Cutler 75 (highest rating Brady/Manning at 96). They are only two years apart, with Culter being younger of the two. Last year both teams had the chance to go into the playoffs, but they didn't because of deficiencies in their respective teams. I haven't heard anything definite in regards to whether Cutler is a better WC QB than Campbell.

Once again I don't understand the whole fascination with Cutler. I really hope the FO doesn't go through this and these are just rumors.

[GTripp0012]

To clarify: when I say above average, I mean numbers above the league average in the role they have in the offense. They must have had solid careers, and have posted above average production in either of the last two seasons. That's why I left Moss off, because his last above average season was 2006.

[53Fan]

There seems to be a lot of FACT vs OPINION in this thread. I gotta go with the facts fellas. As far as making the Pro Bowl goes, the fact that Phillip Rivers had a higher QB rating, better comp.%, threw for over 4000 yards, and had a better TD/INT ratio than Cutler, but did not make it, should tell you all you need to know about that.

[skinsfan_nn]

Clearly like JC or not he has a job to do and that is WIN games PERIOD. If this year he is successful he should be here for a while if not hes gone plain and simple.

And the same applies to Zorn IMO.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by skinsfan_nn

Clearly like JC or not he has a job to do and that is WIN games PERIOD. If this year he is successful he should be here for a while if not hes gone plain and simple.

And the same applies to Zorn IMO.

I think everyone understands this, and I don't know why people feel we need to get rid of him this year.

[Monksdown]

He will be the starter if he throws more td's than ints, and we have a winning record. If he fails at either of those two, we'll have a new coach and qb in 2010.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by skinsfan_nn

Clearly like JC or not he has a job to do and that is WIN games PERIOD. If this year he is successful he should be here for a while if not hes gone plain and simple.

And the same applies to Zorn IMO.

Thats what I said last year reguarding Campbell. We've been saying "one more year" for him for too long.

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Any trade for Jay Cutler would most likely involve either our 1st rounder or any future picks. In a year when we have so many other (more important) needs, and limited resources (cap/draft picks) getting rid of Campbell at the expense of draft picks is a high price to pay. I wouldn't even put QB play as one of the top two issues that we had last year, so risking so much and gamble that a new QB is going to fix everything is not a good idea.




With the PR nightmare that Cutler has caused, even if he had an average season, there would be issues in the locker room. Cutler would need to lead the team deep into the playoffs in order for morale not to be affected. You mentioned that QB is the most important position in the team, and I agree with you, now are you willing to risk the repercussions of getting rid of a well-liked/respected player in Campbell and replace him with someone like Cutler? I mean look at what the Jets went through with Favre last season (although not necessarily the the same situation, but close).

Jason Campbell played not even half a season the year that Saunder was brought in, therefore he didn't practice with the first-team more than half the season and during training camp. I think it's unfair to say that he was in Gibbs/Saunders system for two years in a row, when he wasn't the starter for half the season. Not to mention the whole issues mentioned by Paintrain with the game calling. Last season, Jason Campbell was the starting QB during training camp, the preseason and the regular season, and this would make the first time that he will (hopefully) enter a second year (after a full first year) in the same offense and with the same coach as the starting QB.

I honestly feel Gibbs/Saunders should have thrown him to the fire and make him start his second year. Instead, JC sat on the bench his rookie year and half of his second year, watching Mark Brunell throw 5 yd passes.

I guess thats your take on it - my take was its going to take years to fix our o-line and since it cant be done overnight, we're better off having a QB who gets rid of the ball quicker (to copensate for a line that allows the QB less time). I agree fixing the line is a priority - i guess i personally would rather lock the QB position up with a known comodity this year and not have to worry about getting a new QB next year. i think the basic premise i am coming from us just so different from everyone else - i am close to certain Campbell will fail in this system and we will need a new starting QB next year. I dont forsee any good free agent QBs becoming available, so that means drafting a QB, which is a huge gamble. The chances of us getting a good QB in the draft arent necessarily good. We'd probably have to trade up to get one of the big two, which means giving up even more picks. And if we take a QB further down, it likely means letting him sit on the bench a couple years... so that means 2-3 more years without the QB position resolved. QB is the most important position on a team. Having the right QB can compensate for a multitude of weaknesses, so long as they are not too glaring - look at how good Matt Ryan did last year behind a line that was worse than ours.

I also agree we could be in an entirely different situation now if Campbell had been named the starter his second year. Gibbs stuck with Brunell far too long and if Campbell had been the starter going into year 3, everything MIGHT have been clicking well enough that Snyder would have kept Saunders around for a 3rd year and we could have JC entering his 4th year in a system now that fits his skills perfectly. Instead we're stuck with Zorn trying to put a square peg in a round hole and the chances of success are slim to none. At this point, i view it as a near certainty that Zorn is going to be fired, which by default means Campbell is gone too. I mean, do you REALY think Campbell would want to stick around here to learn yet another offense?

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I guess thats your take on it - my take was its going to take years to fix our o-line and since it cant be done overnight, we're better off having a QB who gets rid of the ball quicker (to copensate for a line that allows the QB less time). I agree fixing the line is a priority - i guess i personally would rather lock the QB position up with a known comodity this year and not have to worry about getting a new QB next year. i think the basic premise i am coming from us just so different from everyone else - i am close to certain Campbell will fail in this system and we will need a new starting QB next year. I dont forsee any good free agent QBs becoming available, so that means drafting a QB, which is a huge gamble. The chances of us getting a good QB in the draft arent necessarily good. We'd probably have to trade up to get one of the big two, which means giving up even more picks. And if we take a QB further down, it likely means letting him sit on the bench a couple years... so that means 2-3 more years without the QB position resolved. QB is the most important position on a team. Having the right QB can compensate for a multitude of weaknesses, so long as they are not too glaring - look at how good Matt Ryan did last year behind a line that was worse than ours.

- If Campbell or whatever other QB fails or even does average (but misses the playoff), Zorn will be fired and the team will and should be blown up. Trading for Cutler would make no sense, b/c you'd be doing what everyone accuses the Redskins FO of doing (drafting away picks, not grooming their own players, etc., etc.). So I don't see the rationale behind trading away Campbell and picks (once again, I believe trading for Cutler will cost us picks)

- I don't think your argument that Campbell will most certainly fail holds up given how well Campbell did during the first 8 games of the season. And no offense, but I have not heard any expert claim this (that Campbell will fail in Zorn's offense). Though many of them do see this upcoming season as do or die.

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I also agree we could be in an entirely different situation now if Campbell had been named the starter his second year. Gibbs stuck with Brunell far too long and if Campbell had been the starter going into year 3, everything MIGHT have been clicking well enough that Snyder would have kept Saunders around for a 3rd year and we could have JC entering his 4th year in a system now that fits his skills perfectly. Instead we're stuck with Zorn trying to put a square peg in a round hole and the chances of success are slim to none. At this point, i view it as a near certainty that Zorn is going to be fired, which by default means Campbell is gone too. I mean, do you REALY think Campbell would want to stick around here to learn yet another offense?

- I think this is exactly why JC should be given this upcoming season to see if he succeeds. You argued that Campbell has been in the same system two years in a row before, and I argued against it since it was a season and a half, that doesn't give you the luxury of spending two offseasons/training camps with your coach.

- If JC is such a square peg, why was he successful in the first half of the season? I think the responsibility is on Zorn to make sure that Campbell succeeds in his system, and for 8 games, he did.

- Finally, I don't think anyone is arguing that Campbell should be declare our franchise QB for years to come. He has to prove that next year, if he doesn't, he'll be gone, along with Zorn and like I said the team will need to be blown up. Brining Cutler will cause the team to say that they are reloading, and use it as an excuse to patch things up and try to go with a half-assed team in 2010.

[GTripp0012]

Also, Ron Jaworski at the time vs. BHA revisionist history is one battle where Jaws has pretty heavy odds in favor.

[GTripp0012]

On this level I've gotta admit a level of admiration for BHA, he doesn't mind verbally sparring with the bullies who are kicking him senseless while he's already down, metaphorically speaking.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

On this level I've gotta admit a level of admiration for BHA, he doesn't mind verbally sparring with the bullies who are kicking him senseless while he's already down, metaphorically speaking.

I dont know what factual evidence i can provide that i havent already. I dont use circular logic. I have an opinion, based on facts. You have an opinion, also based on facts. Which facts we chose to use to support our arguments reinforces our existing beliefs. You reject the arguments I make, exaggerate my position to the extreme to make it look foolish and ive taken similar approaches myself.

I would like nothing more than to be wrong about Campbell, because it would mean:

1) Cerrato and Snyder knew what they were doing when they paired the Square peg and round hole... therefore the franchise is in more capeable hands than we thought.

2) We wont need to go shopping for a QB in 2010 when the market will be thin and we'll be crammed for cap space (Roger Godell thinks the CBA will be extended before 2010).

3) We can probably afford to trade Brennan for picks in 2011.

4) We'll have some freakin' stability at the position for the first time since i cant even remember.

5) Zorn will stay, meaning we wont need to continue the constant merry-go-round coaching turnover that happens every few years... the entire franchise can be stable again.

And all that would be nice... but im just not drinkin the koolaid.