Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

If you saw a homeless guy with a broken arm would you offer him a job cutting your grass? I doubt it. Becuase while that may seem like help it really isn't because he can't do the job and would get nothing from it. I think what jsarno is trying to say is that sometimes what you deem as "help" isn't really helping. Human nature dictates that many people become dependent very easily. If giving them that dollar only further entrenches that sense of dependence then is it really helping?

The old saying "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." comes to mind. Maybe instead of giving them a dollar we should focus on getting them past the rough times. That is why I want to see people who are willing to put work into fixing their lives. They gotta pull as much weight as they can. I'll help anybody who can't help themselves or those who can and try. Helping those who can and don't try isn't helping. Sometimes it is actually even hurting them more.

Wow, you get my point exactly. I tried to think of that saying too, but for some reason kept coming to: you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." lol.

[FRPLG]

I think my point of view stems from my belief that I KNOW that if you took every possession I won and all my money. Separated me from my family. Erased my educational history and work experience. If i had to star with totally nothing, I know I could have a job and a place to live by the end of the week. It simply isn't that hard. Again, there are many that need help and will do what is necessary to get it. These are the people we should focus on helping. It is our responsibility. But there are certainly people who simply won't do what they need to 'earn' their help. And I simply am not in favor of helping people who won't use the help to get to a point where they don't need it anymore.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I think my point of view stems from my belief that I KNOW that if you took every possession I won and all my money. Separated me from my family. Erased my educational history and work experience. If i had to star with totally nothing, I know I could have a job and a place to live by the end of the week. It simply isn't that hard. Again, there are many that need help and will do what is necessary to get it. These are the people we should focus on helping. It is our responsibility. But there are certainly people who simply won't do what they need to 'earn' their help. And I simply am not in favor of helping people who won't use the help to get to a point where they don't need it anymore.

FRPLG, if you have absolutely no money and no place to live, no clothes other than the ones your wearing then what landlord is going to let you rent from him without a deposit of sorts? What employer is going to hire you knowing that you don't have a physical address or phone number for him to be able to reach you? Not saying you can't do it, but I believe it will take longer than a week to get yourself settled in a residence. You almost would have to be a night time maintenance worker that is able to utilize the sinks for laundary and hygiene and find a corner to sleep in for a good while. I'm thinking 3 months and some good luck meeting a compassionate employer.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

FRPLG, if you have absolutely no money and no place to live, no clothes other than the ones your wearing then what landlord is going to let you rent from him without a deposit of sorts? What employer is going to hire you knowing that you don't have a physical address or phone number for him to be able to reach you? Not saying you can't do it, but I believe it will take longer than a week to get yourself settled in a residence. You almost would have to be a night time maintenance worker that is able to utilize the sinks for laundary and hygiene and find a corner to sleep in for a good while. I'm thinking 3 months and some good luck meeting a compassionate employer.

Whether it takes a week or 3 months is irrelevant to me. I know I could do it. I suspect most people here could to.

[Lady Brave]

Originally Posted by 724Skinsfan

FRPLG, if you have absolutely no money and no place to live, no clothes other than the ones your wearing then what landlord is going to let you rent from him without a deposit of sorts? What employer is going to hire you knowing that you don't have a physical address or phone number for him to be able to reach you? Not saying you can't do it, but I believe it will take longer than a week to get yourself settled in a residence. You almost would have to be a night time maintenance worker that is able to utilize the sinks for laundary and hygiene and find a corner to sleep in for a good while. I'm thinking 3 months and some good luck meeting a compassionate employer.

I don't think it would be all that difficult. Illegal immigrants do it all the time.

[724Skinsfan]

Originally Posted by Lady Brave

I don't think it would be all that difficult. Illegal immigrants do it all the time.

True enough, I suppose.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I think my point of view stems from my belief that I KNOW that if you took every possession I won and all my money. Separated me from my family. Erased my educational history and work experience. If i had to star with totally nothing, I know I could have a job and a place to live by the end of the week. It simply isn't that hard. Again, there are many that need help and will do what is necessary to get it. These are the people we should focus on helping. It is our responsibility. But there are certainly people who simply won't do what they need to 'earn' their help. And I simply am not in favor of helping people who won't use the help to get to a point where they don't need it anymore.

I agree...it may take a little more than a week, but I agree.
We are bread to believe that we are helpless to the things that happen to us, we are not. We are the masters of our own destiny.
If all that happened to me today, I already know of ditch digging jobs, or possibly even working at McDonalds. Work hard, and the next thing you know, you're the manager. I refuse to hear "I can't". YOU CAN.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

I'm curious, how would getting rid of insurance companies get rid of "the middle man?" Wouldn't a universal health care system simply be replacing insurance companies with the federal government?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I'm curious, how would getting rid of insurance companies get rid of "the middle man?" Wouldn't a universal health care system simply be replacing insurance companies with the federal government?

No, the Fed. Goverment will simply (and I'm simplifying here) subsidize and make the exsisting providers more affordable, their not eliminating anyone.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

No, the Fed. Goverment will simply (and I'm simplifying here) subsidize and make the exsisting providers more affordable, their not eliminating anyone.

Anytime federal money gets involved, you can expect federal strings attached.

Make no mistake -- with nationalized/socialized/universal health care, you should expect all the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of FEMA.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Anytime federal money gets involved, you can expect federal strings attached.

Make no mistake -- with nationalized/socialized/universal health care, you should expect all the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of FEMA.

Well efficiency or lack thereof and the overall delivery system has been a major part of the existing problem, and will be a major area of focus.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

Well efficiency or lack thereof and the overall delivery system has been a major part of the existing problem, and will be a major area of focus.

I'd still take the inefficiencies of private industry over the inefficiencies of government any day.

I suppose we'll have to define our premise: I'm speaking of Moore's apparent position that gov't will completely take over, and there's NO private health care facilities period. If that's the case, then there's no one to turn to for grievances -- there is no competition. The beauty of the free market is, if someone isn't treating the consumer right, the consumer simply goes to somebody else for better service.

Can't do that when government controls everything.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

No, the Fed. Goverment will simply (and I'm simplifying here) subsidize and make the exsisting providers more affordable, their not eliminating anyone.

I see what you are saying and that is consistent with what mainstream politicians are calling for. I was responding, however, to Michael Moore's comments which seemed to imply that we need to get rid of insurance companies and let the government run the health care industry.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Sheriff Gonna Getcha

I see what you are saying and that is consistent with what mainstream politicians are calling for. I was responding, however, to Michael Moore's comments which seemed to imply that we need to get rid of insurance companies and let the government run the health care industry.

Oh, I see..

[Hog1]

I agree, that the med insurance/medical thing is totally hosed up. If you TRULY want something hosed beyond all recognition, value, and use, give it to the Fed.