Shanahan presser thread

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

To make a claim of 'more bad picks than good' is pretty damning, isn't it? Granted neither of them stocked rosters 2 deep with Pro bowlers but neither were Matt Millen either.

Decide for yourself:

Bruce Allen's Draft Record: 2005-2008

2005 - Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 5 Cadillac Williams RB Auburn
2 36 Barrett Ruud LB Nebraska
3 71 Alex Smith TE Stanford
3 91 Chris Colmer T North Carolina State
4 107 Dan Buenning G Wisconsin
5 141 Donte Nicholson DB Oklahoma
5 155 Larry Brackins -- Pearl River CC MS
6 178 Anthony Bryant DT Alabama
7 221 Rick Razzano RB Mississippi
7 225 Paris Warren WR Utah
7 231 Hamza Abdullah DB Washington State
7 253 J.R. Russell WR Louisville


2006 - Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 23 Davin Joseph G Oklahoma
2 59 Jeremy Trueblood T Boston College
3 90 Maurice Stovall WR Notre Dame
4 122 Alan Zemaitis CB Penn State
5 156 Julian Jenkins DE Stanford
6 194 Bruce Gradkowski QB Toledo
6 202 T.J. Williams TE North Carolina State
7 235 Justin Phinisee CB Oregon
7 241 Charles Bennett DE Clemson
7 244 Tim Massaquoi TE Michigan


2007 - Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Rd Sel # Player Position School

1 4 Gaines Adams DE Clemson
2 35 Arron Sears G Tennessee
2 64 Sabby Piscitelli SAF Oregon State
3 68 Quincy Black LB New Mexico
4 106 Tanard Jackson FS Syracuse
5 141 Greg Peterson DT North Carolina Central
6 182 Adam Hayward LB Portland State
7 214 Chris Denman T Fresno State
7 245 Marcus Hamilton CB Virginia
7 246 Kenneth Darby RB Alabama


2008 - Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 20 Aqib Talib CB Kansas
2 58 Dexter Jackson WR Appalachian State
3 83 Jeremy Zuttah G Rutgers
4 115 Dre Moore DT Maryland
5 160 Josh Johnson QB San Diego
6 175 Geno Hayes OLB Florida State
7 238 Cory Boyd RB South Carolina


Mike Shanahan's Draft Record (We'll use the same time period)

2005 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School

2 56 Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma State
3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State
3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 101 Maurice Clarett -- Ohio State
6 200 Chris Myers G Miami (Fla.)
7 239 Paul Ernster K Northern Arizona


2006 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt
2 61 Tony Scheffler TE Western Michigan
4 119 Brandon Marshall WR Central Florida
4 126 Elvis Dumervil DE Louisville
4 130 Domenik Hixon WR Akron
5 161 Chris Kuper G North Dakota
6 198 Greg Eslinger C Minnesota


2007 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Jarvis Moss DE Florida
2 56 Tim Crowder DE Texas
3 70 Ryan Harris OT Notre Dame
4 121 Marcus Thomas DT Florida


2008 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 42 Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech
4 108 Kory Lichtensteiger C Bowling Green State
4 119 Jack Williams CB Kent State
5 139 Ryan Torain RB Arizona State
5 148 Carlton Powell DT Virginia Tech
6 183 Spencer Larsen FB Arizona
7 220 Josh Barrett DB Arizona State
7 227 Peyton Hillis RB Arkansas

[SmootSmack]

Are we talking only draft? So guys like Donald Penn and Antonio Bryant don't count?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

I only have so much time for cutting and pasting and I dont know where to find a list of free agent acquisitions. Additionally, since most feel the best teams build through the draft, its probably more pertinent, although it certainly doesn't give a complete picture.

If I have time tomorrow, i'll go through this list and post my opinions on a player-by-player basis. My initial impression (on the good side) is that both Shanahan and Allen select multiple linemen in most drafts. Far too many of the 1st and 2nd round picks have not developed into solid starters, and there are more "busts" than we've had ourselves here.... although I guess it depends on your definition of the term.

[CrustyRedskin]

The draft is such a crap shoot. You never know what your getting. This thread is gatting out of hand.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

you change and learn from your mistakes, but if you are inherently bad at something, you're not going to get much better at it. as has been stated a number of times, one of the main reasons shanahan failed when wearing the GM hat in denver is because coaching took up so much of his time, he didn't have enough left to do the proper due dilligence to ensure he made good personnel decisions. Shanahan won't have any more time here, so it would be completely foolish to think he would do any better than he did in Denver in making good personnel decisions. There is only so much time in the day. With Bruce Allen, its simply not one of his strengths. Its more reasonable to think he can simply improve. However, you have to remember that both of these guys were fired within the past year because they "sucked" at being GMs. its unreasonable to expect them to be much better than they were in such a short period of time. A third "piece to the puzzle" needs to be added.

The core of your remarks are subjective, speculative and a matter of assumption on your part. As you point out ina later post we only have so much time for "cutting and pasting"?
I'll leave it at this. One of us has to be wrong...I hope it's you!
HTTR

[Paintrain]

I'd put their draft records as definitely hit and miss than 'more poor than good'. If you give a look at the Broncos '06 draft you've got 5 contributors (although Hixon on the Giants) while their '07 draft was a complete waste. The rest of the Broncos drafts are ok, not stellar but not crap either.

As for the Bucs drafts, '05 & '06 were decent, '07 & '08 were poor. Again hit and miss.

[irish]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I'd put their draft records as definitely hit and miss than 'more poor than good'. If you give a look at the Broncos '06 draft you've got 5 contributors (although Hixon on the Giants) while their '07 draft was a complete waste. The rest of the Broncos drafts are ok, not stellar but not crap either.

As for the Bucs drafts, '05 & '06 were decent, '07 & '08 were poor. Again hit and miss.

Most teams drafts are hit & miss which is why teams try to get as many picks as they can, to give them more chances for hits.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

Buges doesn't fit with the zone blocking scheme Shanahan runs. I'm not sure what is delaying his retirement exactly, maybe he's just sticking around and wrapping up loose ends for now, but I don't see Buges coming back.

Because I really don't know the differences.. what is the difference in Shanahan's style of zone blocking vs the one that Bugel used to coach?

I don't see him coming back either though.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Or worse

oh wow

why is it that all pedos seem to have that thin-lipped tightly drawn mouth look?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

Because I really don't know the differences.. what is the difference in Shanahan's style of zone blocking vs the one that Bugel used to coach?

I don't see him coming back either though.

Good question, I'm not sure

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

oh wow

why is it that all pedos seem to have that thin-lipped tightly drawn mouth look?

And he's actually considered one of the best personnel men in the CFL. He's won three Grey Cups with three different teams as General Manager

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Probably isnt the proper thread for this, as it wasnt from the Shanahan presser, but later on that day, Both Allen and Shanahan did interviews on the John Thompson show. The most interesting thing from both was with Allen. Thompson was talking about how many other talented coaches have come here to try and fix things and they hadnt successed. Thompson asked Allen what the difference was between Allen and Shanahan and everyone else. Allen said started with some generic BS... "well its a different time, different situation..." and then he said that 2010 was an "unprecedented year in that it WILL BE UNCAPPED." Unfortunately, Thompson cut him off there to go on a tangent about somethign else, so Allen couldnt elaborate. My thoughts:

- The owners are deliberately going to ensure a new CBA is not reached before the deadline because they WANT an uncapped year. really, the uncapped year only benefits teams as it will allow them to get rid of players with bloated contracts, keep young players an extra year on the cheap, and have an extra tag to prevent players who are free agents from leaving if they so chose. There is ZERO motivation for owners to get a new deal done right now. One will not get done. 2010 will be uncapped.

- The skins are going to take advantage of the uncapped year to the full. Not only will we release and trade players with bloated contracts, but we will be the kings of free agency, signing both expected free agents and those "surprise cuts" who are released by other teams who are doing the same thing as us (releasing guys they dont want anymore).

- As a result, our roster will be old. very very old. We will have assemble a veteran team that has 2, maybe 3 years to reach the superbowl. However, since the year is uncapped, we can structure contracts of these players to be front-heavy, so when a cap is re-established for 2011, we won't have the problems we currently have with guys like Portis, Samuels and Thomas, who's contracts far outweigh their actual value.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Probably isnt the proper thread for this, as it wasnt from the Shanahan presser, but later on that day, Both Allen and Shanahan did interviews on the John Thompson show. The most interesting thing from both was with Allen. Thompson was talking about how many other talented coaches have come here to try and fix things and they hadnt successed. Thompson asked Allen what the difference was between Allen and Shanahan and everyone else. Allen said started with some generic BS... "well its a different time, different situation..." and then he said that 2010 was an "unprecedented year in that it WILL BE UNCAPPED." Unfortunately, Thompson cut him off there to go on a tangent about somethign else, so Allen couldnt elaborate. My thoughts:

- The owners are deliberately going to ensure a new CBA is not reached before the deadline because they WANT an uncapped year. really, the uncapped year only benefits teams as it will allow them to get rid of players with bloated contracts, keep young players an extra year on the cheap, and have an extra tag to prevent players who are free agents from leaving if they so chose. There is ZERO motivation for owners to get a new deal done right now. One will not get done. 2010 will be uncapped.

- The skins are going to take advantage of the uncapped year to the full. Not only will we release and trade players with bloated contracts, but we will be the kings of free agency, signing both expected free agents and those "surprise cuts" who are released by other teams who are doing the same thing as us (releasing guys they dont want anymore).

- As a result, our roster will be old. very very old. We will have assemble a veteran team that has 2, maybe 3 years to reach the superbowl. However, since the year is uncapped, we can structure contracts of these players to be front-heavy, so when a cap is re-established for 2011, we won't have the problems we currently have with guys like Portis, Samuels and Thomas, who's contracts far outweigh their actual value.

1) It is possible that the owners are dragging their feet intentionally. But it is also true that everyone, owners and players, are waiting to see how the American Needle case shakes out. There's no point in designing a new CBA until that case is resolved.

2) The salary cap system is unlikely to return in a new CBA.

[Longtimefan]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Probably isnt the proper thread for this, as it wasnt from the Shanahan presser, but later on that day, Both Allen and Shanahan did interviews on the John Thompson show. The most interesting thing from both was with Allen. Thompson was talking about how many other talented coaches have come here to try and fix things and they hadnt successed. Thompson asked Allen what the difference was between Allen and Shanahan and everyone else. Allen said started with some generic BS... "well its a different time, different situation..." and then he said that 2010 was an "unprecedented year in that it WILL BE UNCAPPED." Unfortunately, Thompson cut him off there to go on a tangent about somethign else, so Allen couldnt elaborate. My thoughts:

- The owners are deliberately going to ensure a new CBA is not reached before the deadline because they WANT an uncapped year. really, the uncapped year only benefits teams as it will allow them to get rid of players with bloated contracts, keep young players an extra year on the cheap, and have an extra tag to prevent players who are free agents from leaving if they so chose. There is ZERO motivation for owners to get a new deal done right now. One will not get done. 2010 will be uncapped.

- The skins are going to take advantage of the uncapped year to the full. Not only will we release and trade players with bloated contracts, but we will be the kings of free agency, signing both expected free agents and those "surprise cuts" who are released by other teams who are doing the same thing as us (releasing guys they dont want anymore).

- As a result, our roster will be old. very very old. We will have assemble a veteran team that has 2, maybe 3 years to reach the superbowl. However, since the year is uncapped, we can structure contracts of these players to be front-heavy, so when a cap is re-established for 2011, we won't have the problems we currently have with guys like Portis, Samuels and Thomas, who's contracts far outweigh their actual value.

The points you've made probably offers some insight to the latest thread about the prospects of Portis returning. Many look for the team to surely dismiss the likes of Samuels (who'll probably just retire on his own) Daniels, Wynn and even Portis among others whose value has diminished. While we will rid ourselves of some older players, others may be added.

Somehow I have a feeling that in this regard, Bruce Allen is much like his father, embracing the old "The future is now" doctrine, he has demonstrated a fondness for older players so it may be worth watching to see how this process plays with al those having in-put in the player selection process.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Lotus

1) It is possible that the owners are dragging their feet intentionally. But it is also true that everyone, owners and players, are waiting to see how the American Needle case shakes out. There's no point in designing a new CBA until that case is resolved.

I need to read up on this american needle thing. PFT had an article on it but i didnt pay any attention to it. Will go back and take a look at it.

Originally Posted by Lotus

2) The salary cap system is unlikely to return in a new CBA.

I've heard that stated before, but i've never seen a legitimate reason for it. Given that there wont be many (if any) marquee players available in free agency this offseason, i don't think there will be a big spending spree with players getting obscene amounts of money. I certainly don't think there's anyone that will get a contract approaching the deal Haynesworth signed. Thus, there's no reason for the players to really push for a capless CBA. And certainly the owners all want a cap. Sure, a few would prefer no to have a salary floor, but i imagine most of the owners benefit from the system, as they arent "forced" to spend ridiculous amounts of money to remain competitive.

so what am i missing? why is it you feel a cap won't come back?