Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Interesting tidbit: Taylor has more career interceptions and passes defensed than Carlos Rogers. In fact, since Rogers came into the league (i.e. over the last three years), he only has 4 more passes defensed and one more interception than Taylor. I find that interesting for a DE.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

If we make the playoffs this year, I think the move will justify itself. If we don't make the playoffs, then it probably wasn't a good idea.

Jim Zorn: Vinny, we just lost Daniels for the year and Buzbee is gone too. What do we do? We need a decision pretty quickly on the Jason Taylor thing because as other injuries pile up across the league the Fins will have other offers.

Vinny: Jim, if I get JT, can you tell me we'll make the playoffs? If you tell me we'll definitely make the playoffs, then OK. If not, then this may be a bad idea.

Jim Zorn: ?????

Nothing like hedging your bets. Unfortunately VC needs to make the best decision based on the information at hand and the current situation. If he has JT's word that he'll play at least two more seasons, there is no reason not to make this happen, based on our situation at DE.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Yeah, I'm a baseball fan. I'm very familiar with baseball metrics, and use them often, though I find that I don't learn from them in baseball nearly as much as football. Things tend to be more obvious in baseball.

I think we might be best off with Taylor retiring in a year or two. He's playing at a high level right now, but we don't want him to be playing that twilight stage of his career year, I'd rather see him go out at the top of his game, whenever that may be.

The only thing we are guaranteed is this season. Vinny seems pretty confident that Taylor will come back in 2009, but a lot can change between now and then.

IMO, keeping him beyond 2009 is a separate issue from trading for him. As long as he's producing, I'd like to see him stay, but when he stops producing, the team needs to cut it's losses and move on quickly.

I feel confident that he'll give us a good year this season. After that, I'm really not so sure. Steve McNair gave the Ravens only one good season, but the difference is that they didn't trade a second rounder for him (they gave up a 4th, i think).

I see what you're saying, I was mostly just interested in getting your opinion.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

If we stay with an aggressive Cover 1 as our base D with the SS close to the LOS, this scheme should be fine against the run and will cover Taylor. We have needs to replace Griffen and with Rocky's knees, but the injury to Daniels did nothing to increase or decrease those needs.

We did? When?

Campbell - dislocated kneecap
Carlos Rogers - torn ACL & MCL
Thomas - torn tricep
Jansen - broken ankle
Washington - dislocated elbow
Daniels - foot
Moss - groin, heel
Thrash - ankle

The training staff couldn't do anything to prevent the above injuries. Moss has had injury issues with his hammy in the past. There were some guys with hammy issues, but none missed any significant time or more than one game. I'm sure we had no more of a problem with this than any other team. Since the training staff is not restricted by $$$ or cap, you can be sure the Skins have one of the best staffs in the NFL. Not a fair attack on the training staff IMO.

Good points about the defense. I'm sure Greg Blache will find a scheme to stop the run, much in the way GW had to find a scheme to generate a pass rushin years past. That Cover 1 should do the trick.

Very good point about the training staff. Snyder made the hamstring issues a point of emphasis and hired someone to take care of that. You did a great job of showing the various bad breaks we had last year, but ligaments and tendons can't be "trained" to prevent injury, beyond the stretching regimens they already do. As a victim of two achilles tears (basketball) I can tell you that there is no rhyme nor reason to these things, much like you can't prevent ACL tears. You can limit players exposure to injury, but at the end of the day these guys are doing things the human body just wasn't really designed to do, so these types of injuries will occur.

[724Skinsfan]

One thing's for sure. Football is back and we've got some great discussions going on right now.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by hail_2_da_skins

Picking up Jason Taylor says nothing about Demetric Evans ability to play. When you lose two players for the season at the same position, you have to act quickly and fill those roster spots. It just so happen that a former All-Pro is available. It makes sense to me to upgrade at that position. I would say that Jason Taylor is an upgrade over a healthy Phillips McDaniel. Demetric Evans still has a big role on this team and will have plenty of opportunities to contribute. The combination of Taylor and Carter will allow the Redskins to get a push from both ends in their base defense, something they didn't get in the past few seasons. They always had to go to a pass rushing specialist in obvious passing situations.

Jason Taylor is unquestionably an upgrade of Daniels.

I think it's totally fallacious to defend the ability to give up a 2nd round pick for a 34 year old defensive player as "opportunity".

If we had done this trade in May, well before we knew about Daniels' and Buzbee's fates, would you have supported it? I think there would have been a lot more debate over whether it was smart or not if we didn't perceive a giant hole on the DL.

Either way, the situations are identical. Taylor is the LDE now, and we're down a second round pick.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by jdlea

Brodie Croyle came in for Damon Huard. Andrew Walter came in for the Raiders a couple of years ago. Cedric Benson came in after the Thomas Jones trade. Gus Frerotte came in for Marc Bulger. Josh Beck came in for Cleo Lemon. Need I go on?

I'm not saying Evans couldn't have done anything, but let's not get carried away and act like every back up who stepped into a starting role became an All-Pro.

I know it goes both ways. But Evans has been here for some time now. He's been a solid player here for 4-5 years? He is capable of starting. We're not talking about a camp scrub. Giving up a 2nd round pick for a guy that's probably going to be here for one year when we've got age all over the place is just stupid. If we were a Super Bowl conteding type of team then I'd be OK with it. But let's be honest. We're not that type of team right now.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Jim Zorn: Vinny, we just lost Daniels for the year and Buzbee is gone too. What do we do? We need a decision pretty quickly on the Jason Taylor thing because as other injuries pile up across the league the Fins will have other offers.

Vinny: Jim, if I get JT, can you tell me we'll make the playoffs? If you tell me we'll definitely make the playoffs, then OK. If not, then this may be a bad idea.

Jim Zorn: ?????

Nothing like hedging your bets. Unfortunately VC needs to make the best decision based on the information at hand and the current situation. If he has JT's word that he'll play at least two more seasons, there is no reason not to make this happen, based on our situation at DE.

Exactly. There is no guarantee, I think the Patriots in the Super Bowl were as close to a guarantee as I've ever seen in the NFL and even they lost. Plus, how will Zorn know if we're going to make the playoffs before they even finish the first day of training camp? Heck, we didn't even know we were going to make the playoffs last year until AFTER we beat Dallas in the last game of the year.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Jim Zorn: Vinny, we just lost Daniels for the year and Buzbee is gone too. What do we do? We need a decision pretty quickly on the Jason Taylor thing because as other injuries pile up across the league the Fins will have other offers.

Vinny: Jim, if I get JT, can you tell me we'll make the playoffs? If you tell me we'll definitely make the playoffs, then OK. If not, then this may be a bad idea.

Jim Zorn: ?????

Nothing like hedging your bets. Unfortunately VC needs to make the best decision based on the information at hand and the current situation. If he has JT's word that he'll play at least two more seasons, there is no reason not to make this happen, based on our situation at DE.

Haha. Nice.

Though, I think that's Vinny's call whether or not Jason Taylor gets us back over the top. Realistically, I think it gets us closer, but closer doesn't count.

Thing is, with Jason Campbell right on the edge of maturity, I think we could do some real damage in the playoffs if we can make it. We might be good enough to catch Dallas now, but we're still going to need some injury luck to catch Philly and/or the Giants (or Eli could implode again).

There's nothing wrong with trying to get as close to your competition as possible I suppose. Either way, I'm going to avoid grading this trade with hindsight. You're right, even though getting into the playoffs may justify this deal in my mind, I can't act like I would have done the same thing, even if it ends up working.

[hesscl34]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

Interesting tidbit: Taylor has more career interceptions and passes defensed than Carlos Rogers. In fact, since Rogers came into the league (i.e. over the last three years), he only has 4 more passes defensed and one more interception than Taylor. I find that interesting for a DE.

Is this really all that surprising?? Rogers sucks...

[MTK]

I wasn't against making a move for Taylor a few months ago. But in the end it's the offense I'm looking at as the real key to the season. If the offense clicks I see no reason why this team couldn't be a real threat in the NFC. We have a solid line, some nice playmaking threats at WR, RB, and TE... now it's just up to Campbell to guide the ship. If Campbell breaks out we could be in for a very good year.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I know it goes both ways. But Evans has been here for some time now. He's been a solid player here for 4-5 years? He is capable of starting. We're not talking about a camp scrub. Giving up a 2nd round pick for a guy that's probably going to be here for one year when we've got age all over the place is just stupid. If we were a Super Bowl conteding type of team then I'd be OK with it. But let's be honest. We're not that type of team right now.

I agree fully.

Jason Taylor was/is a great player. But as he ages, the flaws in his game are only going to become more evident.

With that said, Jason Taylor's skill set (poor run defense, excellent speed/power rush combination) should age pretty well, so the Skins might have a multiple year solution on the DL if they can convince him that sticking around to win a championship is worth it.

At the end of the day, Jason Taylor now has the best shot to win the championship that he's had in the last 5 years. This is a great trade for Taylor.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I know it goes both ways. But Evans has been here for some time now. He's been a solid player here for 4-5 years? He is capable of starting. We're not talking about a camp scrub. Giving up a 2nd round pick for a guy that's probably going to be here for one year when we've got age all over the place is just stupid. If we were a Super Bowl conteding type of team then I'd be OK with it. But let's be honest. We're not that type of team right now.

I don't know what I agree that Demetric will ever be a starter in the NFL. He's never had more than 26 tackles and 2.5 sacks in a season and that was in 04. I'm not saying he's not a fine spot player, I don't mind putting him in the rotation, but I don't think the guy should ever be counted on to start 16 games.

I didn't like the D Line with Daniels. I feel like, in the short term, this deal makes the Skins better. However, I'm not saying that puts them over the top, but I'm not going to be shocked if by adding the leadership and ability of Taylor, you put this team into the playoffs with a shot at getting hot and making a run a al the NY Giants.

I think, if last season taught us anything, a pass rush can change an entire game.

All that said, that's a tall order for a first year head coach.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, the average production of a 2nd round pick tends to give a team between 2 and 3 wins over the life of his rookie contract, which is what I was referencing. A star in the making is obviously going to produce much more, and a bust will produce near nothing

Where does this metric come from? I don't see how you can accurately predicit that a single 2nd round pick gives a team 2-3 wins over his rookie contract? Way too many variables to factor in. Maybe at QB, but it don't see how you could do this at any other position. This is not baseball or basketball. Football is the ultimate team sport and one player can't win games almost single-handed (outside of a Brady/Manning type QB or dominant pass rusher like LT or Reggie White).

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I wasn't against making a move for Taylor a few months ago. But in the end it's the offense I'm looking at as the real key to the season. If the offense clicks I see no reason why this team couldn't be a real threat in the NFC. We have a solid line, some nice playmaking threats at WR, RB, and TE... now it's just up to Campbell to guide the ship. If Campbell breaks out we could be in for a very good year.

The defense looks to be solidly above average now. They won't be quite as good as last year I don't think, but we can live with above average performance.

The offense is all about Campbell and the guys blocking for him. If he posts numbers similar to last year (or worse than last year), we probably don't make the playoffs. If he improves, I really, really like our chances.

It's asking a lot for him to improve this season, especially early on. Someone is going to have to win those first few games for us, and I think Campbell gives us the best chance in September.