Updated Title: 8th Circuit Court Grants Stay, Lockout Reinstated

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Obviously they had that "right" to opt out. Were they "right" in doing so? No. If you want to claim you are losing profits, be prepared to show the numbers.

Ok. Ignoring the second part for the moment. You agree they had the right to do it. Nowhere did the CBA say the side opting out had to show any type of proof or level of support in order for the opt out to become effective. At least we agree on that.

Now the 2nd part is more fuzzy. But let's say that the owners didn't help their case by not immediately giving the books to a neutral party, redact the names and identities and say to the players here are the numbers and projected path. Further let's say that the owners royally stepped in it with the tv deal. It still comes to a point that there was a federal mediator working with the group that could have (if both sides wanted to) put a deal together. You misquoted the mediator before, he did not say both sides were at a stopping point, he said it was clear no more was going to be done, and that (imo) is because the players knew that they were going to litigate, and they weren't going to let mediation get in the way of decertifying. The owners had every desire to stay within the labor framework because that would give them leverage over your "irreplaceable" players.

Finally, paraphrasing JR, the players are precious, but not irreplaceable. (As an entertainment analogy, CBS is not going to end because Sheen is off 2 1/2 men, another eager actor is stepping into that role) Peyton Manning may be indianapolis' all in all but I wouldn't shed a tear if he was out of the league - maybe he would go into commercials full time, that would be awesome. As all Redskins fans know the next Peyton is due out in 2012/2013 well after this fiasco is over. Heck maybe if the season gets cancelled the NFL will do a lottery (with the agreement of some group of players) and get the number 1 pick .

[Dirtbag59]

Regardless of how you feel about the lockout I think people are missing the fact that NFL Owners are running legal monopolies. So comparing them to the rules and privileges experienced by other private businesses is simply a case of comparing apples to oranges.

Not saying that the NFL should be required to give the players access to their books but at the same time they should at least be required evaluation by a neutral third and even fourth party (that doesn't evoke memories of Arther Anderson) and in turn report their findings to the players..

[Longtimefan]

A look at the hidden problems of the lockout on our youth. How it affects their young lives.

Roger Goodell: Not enough negotiation between NFL owners, players - NFL News | FOX Sports on MSN

[SBXVII]

I just don't see the arguements people are making for the players. Sorry.

Players can't be replaced? Sorry, not a good arguement.... McNabb was replaced in Philli, Coach's get repaced all the time. Portis has been replaced, and S.Moss might be this year. The question is will the talent level be the same or will it get worse. Monitarily it might not be in the best decision, but players are cut or traded all the time.

Monopolies? I would accept this arguement had it been a few yrs ago, or if the NFL filed suit against any other football leagues, but they are not. The CFL is doing fine, There was a European League but they folded, the UFL has been running for how long now? No there is no monopolies. I'm just guessing but if all the players decided not to come back and decided to turn to the UFL, they might not get the money they had in the NFL but they would have jobs, and they would get some form of pay and I'm betting that after a few yrs they might also have paychecks close to what they are getting now. Because the fans would follow the players just to watch their favorite player play. So merchandise sales would go up for those teams enabling them to pay the players more. The NFL is not the "only" football league out there thus no monopoly. Yes they pay better then the rest but they are not the only one.

Showing of the books? The biggest arguement here is "if the owners are taking a loss then they should just open their books." I think it's easier to show then simply opening the books.... is your house worth as much as it was 5 yrs ago? I gaurantee not. If you own a business is it worth as much as it was 5 yrs ago, and have you not made less then 5 yrs ago? I'm not saying your not making money, I'm asking are you making as much or more then 5 yrs ago? Why do I ask? because the economy has tanked if you haven't known it. People are losing their homes because they can't sell them to pay off their loans. So your going to tell me that people are of the mind set to think "F- my house, but I'll pay for my season tickets"? "hey I can't make my mortgage payment, but I'm going to purchase a Jersay"? "hey I can't pay my bills but I'm going to load up on the food and beer at the park today"? I don't think so. I can tell you there is no way any of you will change my mind and make me believe the owners have not been taking in less money. Are they hurting? no, but the owners are taking in less money which effects their revenue sharing. Gas prices have gone up so I'm also sure the cost of flying players to other locations costs more now. Say all you want about the NFL being a money machine but the money machine needs funds to operate. See the Gov. was in a similar situation, ask the employees to take a pay cut, or shut down for 30 days? How they could say they don't have the money one day then the next say ok everything is fine is baffling. Somewhere they robbed Peter to pay Paul. Hopefully the NFL does not find itself in a similar situation. Players not giving the 1 billion to the owners and later the owners having to either move teams to better markets so the owners will not have to share as much with each other or shut down because they simply can't afford to keep operating.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I just don't see the arguements people are making for the players. Sorry.

Players can't be replaced? Sorry, not a good arguement.... McNabb was replaced in Philli, Coach's get repaced all the time. Portis has been replaced, and S.Moss might be this year. The question is will the talent level be the same or will it get worse. Monitarily it might not be in the best decision, but players are cut or traded all the time.

Monopolies? I would accept this arguement had it been a few yrs ago, or if the NFL filed suit against any other football leagues, but they are not. The CFL is doing fine, There was a European League but they folded, the UFL has been running for how long now? No there is no monopolies. I'm just guessing but if all the players decided not to come back and decided to turn to the UFL, they might not get the money they had in the NFL but they would have jobs, and they would get some form of pay and I'm betting that after a few yrs they might also have paychecks close to what they are getting now. Because the fans would follow the players just to watch their favorite player play. So merchandise sales would go up for those teams enabling them to pay the players more. The NFL is not the "only" football league out there thus no monopoly. Yes they pay better then the rest but they are not the only one.

Showing of the books? The biggest arguement here is "if the owners are taking a loss then they should just open their books." I think it's easier to show then simply opening the books.... is your house worth as much as it was 5 yrs ago? I gaurantee not. If you own a business is it worth as much as it was 5 yrs ago, and have you not made less then 5 yrs ago? I'm not saying your not making money, I'm asking are you making as much or more then 5 yrs ago? Why do I ask? because the economy has tanked if you haven't known it. People are losing their homes because they can't sell them to pay off their loans. So your going to tell me that people are of the mind set to think "F- my house, but I'll pay for my season tickets"? "hey I can't make my mortgage payment, but I'm going to purchase a Jersay"? "hey I can't pay my bills but I'm going to load up on the food and beer at the park today"? I don't think so. I can tell you there is no way any of you will change my mind and make me believe the owners have not been taking in less money. Are they hurting? no, but the owners are taking in less money which effects their revenue sharing. Gas prices have gone up so I'm also sure the cost of flying players to other locations costs more now. Say all you want about the NFL being a money machine but the money machine needs funds to operate. See the Gov. was in a similar situation, ask the employees to take a pay cut, or shut down for 30 days? How they could say they don't have the money one day then the next say ok everything is fine is baffling. Somewhere they robbed Peter to pay Paul. Hopefully the NFL does not find itself in a similar situation. Players not giving the 1 billion to the owners and later the owners having to either move teams to better markets so the owners will not have to share as much with each other or shut down because they simply can't afford to keep operating.

It is not a matter of just being a monopoly or not. Just being a monopoly is not going to get the firms up into the courts. Some firms are monopolies because "of the nature of the beast"

It is the act of monopolizing the relevant market. The firm(s) have to do an active act in order to get a case against them in antitrust. Many pages are spent just defining the market-. For the NFL to get slammed for antitrust they need to be doing an act in which they try to create a barrier to entry or price fixing, etc.

Even though the NFL is not a monopoly per se, it has certainly market share and market power. The NFL is a dominant firm with a compeititive fringe.

[SBXVII]

Wow, this sounds like what I said... almost....

Vindicated by labor fight, Ralph Wilson isn’t gloating | ProFootballTalk

“It’s very difficult,” Wilson tells Myers of the Bills’ financial performance. “We’ve had a tough time. We’ve hung in there. Buffalo has lost population and it’s a tough go. When I came in the league, it was the 14th largest city in the league. All the corporations moved out of Buffalo. We’re doing alright. We will make it, but it’s not easy.”

It's exactly what I keep saying, fans think of the Skins and Cowboys and say the owners are making money hand over fist. Yeah your right. But what about the smaller markets? Those that have lost the fan base like Jacksonville, Carolina, Buffalo? Less income to the good markets mean less money to the bad markets. All the owners are trying to do is make sure the money is there for the teams, the fans have a team to watch, and the players have jobs.

[SBXVII]

Funny that someone else started a thread like this. Sorry it's from a rival site though....

Season Ticket Renewals

I don't doubt that any of the season seats given up won't be refilled but think of the smaller markets where it might be harder to find fans to refill seats. Who knows with how bad the economy is maybe the Skins have trouble filling all of them back up.

[Dirtbag59]

Guys guys. Super serious question. Who smiles less. Kristen Stewart or DeMaurice Smith or Mike Shanahan?
VS VS

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Dirtbag59

Guys guys. Super serious question. Who smiles less. Kristen Stewart or DeMaurice Smith or Mike Shanahan?
VS VS

No one smiles less than this guy:

[gafinfan]

I think its about time for the owners to take back the game and control of it. How? By giving the players just what they want .... a Free market labor system! They are so very sure that the game can not do without them, that they make the Game versus The GAME being their ticket to a better life that it all needs to be blown up so that the real facts of life are restated into their pea sized brains!

The Owners have been playing on the players field of play for far to long. Lets get out of the courts (Litigation), out of the Lockout, away from a Lack of Football (the 3 L's) and back to playing the game.

End The Lockout…Give The Players What They Want « Phin Phanatic | A Miami Dolphins blog

[Alvin Walton]

Robert Kraft is Captain Obvious.

Kraft concerned about lockout aggravating fans

[SmootSmack]

Starting a fresh discussion here

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-l...tml#post802972