Patrick Ramsey Vs Philip Rivers

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

And of course that's the crux of the issue. Teams looking to trade a draft choice for a QB as opposed to trying to sign an UFA are confronted with a lot of options this offseason. As homers, we are probably (and not necessarily intentionally) over-valuing the trade value of QB's in hopes of getting more for Ramsey than his actual market value to other teams. Probably the same for Rivers. Drafting is such a crapshoot and otherwise logical rules seem to go by the wayside in valuing draft picks against current players.

Think about it. If you are New Orleans or Tennesse, do you trade your pick for Rivers instead of taking Young or Linehart? No one seems to even be discussing that possibility. Yet, if Rivers were coming out of school NOW, with the same stats and rep as when he did 2 years ago, he would probably be included in the "which QB goes first?" speculation.

Somehow, even though Rivers has been in the league two years and done nothing to demostrate his inability to live up to his original potential (except fail to beat out a pro-bowl, playoff (last year) QB), he is of lesser value than two college QB's each with acknowledged and serious question marks.

At QB, it's all about that shiny new "potential". First round QB's are kinda like new cars - as soon as you drive them off the lot they lose value.

Before I even got to the bottom of your post, I was thinking how the previous draft classes are like '04 and '05 models. The car industry uses the term "Nused". Not a lot of milage, but not straight from the factory either.

I think most GMs with an early draft pick or more inclined to go with something from the "factory", if you will. Unless, of course, you're talking about a proven QB, like a Drew Brees.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by skindogger47

I'd have to say that Rivers, just like any QB drafted in the first round, was a project himself. He didn't go 13-0 in the SEC either. I don't care about his ACC passing yards. But he is better than Ramsey. Where you come from makes you who you are. SEC> ACC> Conference USA. Big Ben is the exception. And Florida Gators.

I don't really agree with the assertion that the school you come from decides how good you're going to be in the NFL. Chad Pennington, prior to injury, had a very good stretch as a starter and he came from Marshall, a mid-major school at best. So did Leftwich and he's becoming a very good starter also. I think that Rivers would be lucky to reach Leftwich's level. Favre went to Southern Miss, they're not exactly a top school, either. Culpepper played at Central Florida. There's plenty of examples of guys who came from mid majors and went on to have success in the NFL.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by jdlea

I don't really agree with the assertion that the school you come from decides how good you're going to be in the NFL. Chad Pennington, prior to injury, had a very good stretch as a starter and he came from Marshall, a mid-major school at best. So did Leftwich and he's becoming a very good starter also. I think that Rivers would be lucky to reach Leftwich's level. Favre went to Southern Miss, they're not exactly a top school, either. Culpepper played at Central Florida. There's plenty of examples of guys who came from mid majors and went on to have success in the NFL.

I agree with you that the school you come from does not decide how good you will be in the NFL.
However that is as far as I agree with you, because the other small school players you mentioned Pennington, Big Ben, Leftwich, Culpepper, etc. all stood out in college and were the major reason their programs had winning records. Ramsey did not. His college career was just above average, he did not stand out and his college team was .500 one year and a loser his senior year.
His draft stock went up because of his workouts and play at the senior bowl. Big difference in college careers and in their pro careers.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I agree with you that the school you come from does not decide how good you will be in the NFL.
However that is as far as I agree with you, because the other small school players you mentioned Pennington, Big Ben, Leftwich, Culpepper, etc. all stood out in college and were the major reason their programs had winning records. Ramsey did not. His college career was just above average, he did not stand out and his college team was .500 one year and a loser his senior year.
His draft stock went up because of his workouts and play at the senior bowl. Big difference in college careers and in their pro careers.

I wasn't really making any point about Ramsey in that post. I was only saying that the school you come from doesn't have any bearing on the way you'll play in the NFL. However, I think that Ramsey can be successful in this league. He wasn't bad as a starter, he just wasn't consistent. I think that would have come with time on the field, but we may never know.

[ST21]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

At this point, I doubt it. We drafted Campbell higher than he was rated and, even at the time we drafted him, he was viewed as a project.

Rivers was/is viewed as someone who can compete for a starting job right now with the expectation that he should be able to win the competition.

In evaluating trade value, Ramsey is more similar to Rivers than Campbell but with the caveat that Ramsey has already demonstrated some significant faults that call into question his ability to be THE quarterback whereas Rivers' faults, if any, are still very much an unknown.

IF Campbell were on the block, I am betting he would be worth a solid 3, MAYBE a 2.

Really, I've got this from ESPN draft board, and at the time in question was his accuracy, but Gibbs has put that to rest.....he was more than a project on some people board he was a head of Rodgers......:

Updated: Jan. 28, 2005
ESPN.com evaluation: QB Jason Campbell



Scouts, Inc.




Editor's note: Practice notes will be updated daily and a final report will be completed on Friday, Jan. 28.

No player improved his draft value more in 2004 than Jason Campbell. After struggling through three extremely inconsistent seasons, Campbell thrived as a senior in what was his fourth offensive scheme in four years. New offensive coordinator Al Borges found the right fit for Campbell, as his West Coast scheme simplified things and gave Campbell a lot more definitive reads to make. As his confidence grew, so too did his production. Most impressive was Campbell's improvement in regards to his decision-making skills, as he threw 13 more touchdowns (19) than interceptions (6). Campbell has the physical tools of a first round pick but there are still questions about his accuracy and ability to see the entire field. If he can answer some of those questions this week, he has an opportunity to solidify a spot in the second round of the upcoming draft.

[firstdown]

I'm not convienced that Ramsey won't be here next year. I think Saunders may want a look at all three of our current QB's so he can decide who will be our starter. I'm not totaly sold on brunell as a QB that can take us to the SB because I don't know if toward the end of this past season if his arm was getting weak or the whole O was playing bad. I do like what Brunell did this season I just have that question mark on him or was it just his knee that was the problem.

[JoeRedskin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The only way Ramsey stays is if he wants to stay and accept that, at best, he will be given a shot to start but that, unless and until he thouroghly outshines Brunell, Brunnell is the starter. Further, if Brunnell is going to be replaced, Campbell will also be given a shot and Ramsey will have to beat him out to. I doubt, and with good reason, that Ramsey will accept the role of "solid back-up" for another year but he may.

Oh dear god - I am being sucked into the blackhole of the Ramsey/Brunnell debate. Clearly its dark evil gravitational pull is too strong to be resisted. AAAaaaagghhhh ...

I am sorry Mods - looks like one more thread going to the mega merge. Please don't ban me.

[dmek25]

first of all,no way to have an official debate about this without offiss.second,i cant see any gm in the nfl that would think that p rivers is worth more than ramsey(and for the record,im not in love with #11)at the very least with ramsey you have a qb that has somewhat of an idea what goes on in an actual game,with rivers EVERYTHING is a mystery.plus,he has one of the funkyest throwing motions in the league

[12thMan]

I might add it's a little refreshing that this debate isn't about Ramsey and Brunell, but Ramsey and Rivers.

[Monksdown]

I retract. In 2003 Patrick started 11 games.

14 Td
9 Int
75.8 rating

His rating is 10 pts lower than we would like. And he wasn't exactly the 2 minute drill type of qb we would like.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I might add it's a little refreshing that this debate isn't about Ramsey and Brunell, but Ramsey and Rivers.

But how can we include LaVar in this discussion. That's what I want to know

By the way, are you being sued?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

By the way, are you being sued?

We all know who's the original 12thMan!

Will one of you guys represent me if I have to contact Paul Allen and bring this matter to his attention?

[Dana87]

I think some of you are missing the point of the discussion. I am not saying that either Ramsey or Rivers is worth a 1st round pick. I am however saying that if NFL scouts consider Rivers worth a 1st rnd pick then IMHO you have to consider Ramsey as well. I've seen quite a few responses that feel that we've seen what Ramsey can do and what he can't do. While I respect your opinion I think you've let your emotions get the best of you. When Ramsey came into the league he had hardly been given a chance to develope when he was thrown to the wolves with the worst blocking scheme ever in the NFL. And he was still respectable, not great but respectable. His second year the blocking was even worse and the kid hung in while getting absolutly clobbered game after game, and he for the most part kept us competitive. Now he has had a chance to play in a solid system and get NFL Tutaledge I think he has developed quite a bit. He played pretty well down the stretch in '04 and played well in the little bit of action he saw in the Giant game. Now I am not saying that I know he is ready to lead a team, but I am saying that we don't know that he isn,t ready. That just can't be determined yet. Hasslebeck for years looked lost at QB in Seattle now he's the top rated QB in the NFC.

[MTK]

Dana87, there's nothing emotional about it, Ramsey is not worth a first round pick and that's not an emotional opinion, that's an opinion shared by nearly every NFL GM/scout/decision maker, it's just reality.

If you think Ramsey is worth a first round pick, then you my friend is the one with the emotional attachment.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Dana87, there's nothing emotional about it, Ramsey is not worth a first round pick and that's not an emotional opinion, that's an opinion shared by nearly every NFL GM/scout/decision maker, it's just reality.

If you think Ramsey is worth a first round pick, then you my friend is the one with the emotional attachment.

I brought up the point, before, however that he was worth a first rounder when we got Brunell. Gibbs knew then who he wanted to run his O, we should have traded him then.

I know, hindsight's 20/20, but I thought we should have traded him then too.